HiTorque starter motor Hmm no thanks.

[stuart]

Assembling a car for someone that is an abandoned restoration so a lot of parts on it are still technically new though purchased a few years ago. Ready to start engine and it is fitted with a HiTorque starter motor.

Starts and runs fine a couple of times then refuses, starter just goes clunk.

Strip it out and its seized solid so as there is no chance of sending it back decided to strip it to find the problem. Well I have seen some starter motors in some very poor states having been burned out/immersed in water etc but this one takes the absolute biscuit. The entire commutator has disintegrated and chewed the armature end and the brush mountings are twisted and the whole thing is generally fe**ed.

FWIW its a Powerlite version.

I have never been a big fan of them but I really dont think the commutator was up to the job anyway as its seems to have just been formed out of soft resin with the copper segments sunk into it. The internal bearings say "Made in Japan" but there is no other makers ID anywhere except for the Powerlite sticker on the end.

Stuart.

[Don H.]

Yikes!

 

I'm with ya on high-torque starters, although nowhere near your experience level. My original is doing just fine, thanks, and is eminently rebuildable. Provides more than enough torque for my car (does anyone really need more than stock, I wonder?) and I like the fact that all my original S-T and Lucas troubleshooting info is still relevant.

 

There are a LOT of folks who make this mod, on both sides of the Atlantic. I've never completely understood exactly why.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Don H.

[iain]

Wow, I'll stick with standard thanks! It's working just fine after its last rebuild....in 1980

[james christie]

I take my hat off to you Stuart for your courage to name names. We all do a lot of moaning and bitching here but rare are those who name and shame.

By the way, my starter motor has been starting for 56 years. If it does have a problem at least I can have a go to fix it myself.

 

James

[TriumphV8]

High torque & less pickup of Amps.....

That can not work! The trick is the massively

reduced turning speed of the engine.

With the hotter cams its at the limit that the engine starts.

 

What I dislike the most is the price. There is nothing of value

in that item and similar starters but for VW Polo are starting at 40 Euros.

Thats the real value of these items but not 230 GBP!

[Lebro]

I agree, my "bomb" starter was working just fine before I replaced it with a TR shop geared motor.

This also is working just fine. The only reason I changed was to allow me to fit the Phoenix manifold. Only alternative was to change the flywheel, & get hold of a later (shorter) motor type I.e. TR 4 type.

FWIW I am told that the ones sold by the TR shop are of a better quality than some.

They are labeled "Wasp"

 

Bob

Edited June 10, 2016 by Lebro

[RogerH]

Hi Stuart,

that must be worth a place in a black museum.

I tend to keep some of my best disasters somewhere at hand in the garage.

 

There is a major issue here.

Modern cars all have these motors. They never fail (very rare).

I have had to have two rebuilt after three years use each (at apprx £100 a go)

The bearings fell out of one and the armature was knackered on another.

 

The size of these motors is very appealing but something must be amiss.

 

Are they rejects from the main factory. Perhaps they are just within tolerance so get put aside for the suckers.

 

As Andreas points pout we are paying a premium for what is an everyday item.

 

Roger

 

PS - Hi Bob, at least one of my failures was a Wosp from the TRShop. Not the shops fault.

Edited June 11, 2016 by RogerH

[boxofbits]

As with all parts, it just goes to demonstrate the high quality of original engineered OEM parts.

 

It's exactly the same with BMC original parts - everything fits like a glove if it's a panel, and likewise with mechanical parts they appear to stand the test of time and fit properly.

 

I've never been sold on these, and think I'll hang on to my original!

 

Kevin

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

I agree, my "bomb" starter was working just fine before I replaced it with a TR shop geared motor.

This also is working just fine. The only reason I changed was to allow me to fit the Phoenix manifold. Only alternative was to change the flywheel, & get hold of a later (shorter) motor type I.e. TR 4 type.

FWIW I am told that the ones sold by the TR shop are of a better quality than some.

They are labeled "Wasp"

 

Bob

Bob,

I know for a fact that the TR250/5/6 shrink on ring gear will fit a TR2-3 flywheel (The grubbers did it one day at C&B then moaned we had the wrong ring gears in stock)

I have a memory that the TR5/6 pre engage starter (M418G type) has an adjustable position for the bendix gear throw, that will 'adjust' enough to compensate for the thicker bell housing flange of a real TR engine. Failing that it would mean a lathe skim on the starter motor flange. The TR6 starter is not as long as a bomb unit. Or what about the inertia unit used on a TR250 running on the TR250/5/6 ring gear fitted to a TR2/3 flywheel?

 

Peter W

[Lebro]

Yes but

It still means pulling the engine out !

The Wasp geared motor will remain as long as it lasts

It spins the engine over just fine.

 

Bob

[John L]

I experienced this when I was a technician with a large tractor manufacturer, there were 2 issues identified, 1 was the key switch not releasing, contacts inside switch, and 2 the pinion not returning off the flywheel, and so as a gear drive the flywheel is turning the motor will be turning at a huge speed and so shreds the armature.

I have seen the same on dare I say it an MGB, with the Lucas MG motor, the owner continued to crank the engine when it wouldn't start, it was a bad rotor arm, but just the same amount of damage.

I'm not sure what the final outcome of geardrive was but I think it was alignment of the starter hole and squareness of the motor to the flywheel.

John

[Steves_TR6]

My first tr6 had its original starter, which would flatten a battery pretty damn quick if the engine didn't start promptly

 

I replaced wit a wasp from the tr shop, it worked very well for the 6 months that I had it before selling the car.

 

Current car had a 'refurbished' original starter and that works well, and does not drain the battery overly fast.

 

Horses for courses, I'd go for reconditioning next time

 

Steve

[lynchpin]

Hi

My 4 still has an original starter (cluck wrrr wrrr vroom) a dynamo which i had refurbished (front bearing worn) and is pos earth with big belt and original fan, if it ain"t broke don"t fix it.. unless you want need to..

 

Phil...

[RogerH]

Hi Phil,

'if it ain't broke, fix it till it is.......

 

Roger

[Lee Dutton]

I fitted a 'high torque' starter motor to my 4a in the hope of better starting must be an improvement etc etc

 

Made an awful noise when turning over, so I removed it and took my original to a place in Grays Essex where I was met by a guy in a

 

brown coat he looked a relic from the 60's took me out the back and showed my all the MG, triumph and classic car electric components

 

he was rebuilding.

 

He was also rebuilding some Spitfire starters no not the car the plane ones, anyway rebuilt my starter put a lot of new parts in fantastic

 

job cost about £90 well worth it hope he is still there as he was having problems with his pacemaker...these guys are still around

 

regards Lee

[roy53]

I have used WOSP for quite some time for the race cars and various special builds which required bespoke starters and alternators.

They have always been overly helpful on both new and when say the alternator needed a check it was very quick and not at all expensive.

 

I did fit i to my 5 road car, will be changing back as soon as poss as can't stand the sound when starting.Never notice this on the race cars.

 

I can only recommend WOSP from personal experience. And Stuart if if there is no sign of long term use i would still send it back.And if the components are that cheap you may be lucky.

 

ROY

[peejay4A]

I've had excellent service from WOSP too, Luke Performance in Aylesbury from memory.

[RogerH]

WOSP are at
Luke Motorsport, Unit 8 Anglo Business Park, Smeaton Close,
Aylesbury, Bucks, HP19 8UP.

01296 415 044

http://www.lukemotorsport.co.uk/

 

Roger

[stuart]

This one is probably at least 3 or 4 years old although hasnt done anything at all, I also noticed in the solenoid section the copper ring that forms part of the main pull in switch was already starting to transfer material from one side to another so also wouldnt have lasted very long either before "burnout" would have occurred. I have had original Lucas starters that have stuck in and they havent done damage to themselves like this one.The other point being is this hadnt stuck in either!

I have had Wosp ones from TR Shop and I know they seem to be OK though like others Im not a fan of the noise they make!

Stuart.

Edited June 11, 2016 by stuart

[Nick Jones]

I have the proper OE Nippon Denso one in mine with the conversion parts Canley Classics used to do. Came off a 12 year old Toyota 10 years ago and still works fine. Fitted to miss the 6-3-1 manifold.

 

Nick

[Andy Moltu]

Modern starter motors are generally pretty reliable so why do they cause problems in TRs?

 

My theory is that many that are sold are of poor quality.

 

It could be that they are suffering from exposure to the elements? Possibly, however as many moderns have under body shields but a lot of modern(ish) cars use this style of stater in similarly exposed sites.

[Stanpartmanpartwolf]

I'd wager that SFC (shtuff from China) is getting into the system here.

The totally reliable Denso alternators were copied by them, with appalling results.

Denso starters never gave any bother, apart from stuck solenoid plungers after a lay-up, and it seems too coincidental that prices decrease slightly while bother just increases.

Geared starters are of most benefit on Lucas PI TRs, as the system voltage doesn't get dragged down to single figures on cranking.

So the fuel pressure stays up & the injectors may even fire occasionally.

[MadMarx]

I have them on both race cars and they are doing great an sound well. Not like these tired original starters.

I recommend them, especially for high compression engines

[North London Mike]

I know we're all old skool, but really !

 

First thing I did was go Hi Torque, never looked back, spins her up nice and fast. 45,000 miles later, still going strong, including the Malvern flood of 2007!

 

Denso, pre China version

 

On a club run I'm in a car park full of TR3/4/5s all wheezing into life, nuff said

 

As the man said, you pay your money.............

[Richardtr3a]

I struggled with the bomb starter for years on my 3A. I had it rebuilt by a "specialist" and the first time it was used the bendix made a hole in the casting.

 

I gave up and bought one from Cambridge Motorspirt many years ago and have never had to look at it again.

 

Originality has to go sometimes

 

Richard & H.