That was a year that was..

[Ian Vincent]

7 minutes ago, Charlie D said:

Have a 3A myself and I never realized that the lower wishbone mountings were totally different on a 4A and above. Given that, and the different trunion fitting (A removable through bolt as opposed to a fixed shaft through the trunion with a thread at each end which the earlier cars have) and I can see how much easier it must be to do work on the later cars than on the Sidescreen cars.

Charlie.

It can be easier until the through bolt on the trunion welds itself into the aforementioned part as happened to a friend of mine years ago.

Rgds Ian

[Bfg]

Having yesterday made the first backing plate, for behind the lower wishbone's chassis mount, today I made the other for this side. . .

^ the wishbones are reversed in this photo, ie the front one is to the left and the rear on the right.  The 2nd backing plate I made (again from recycled steel) is much the same for either, and both are 4mm thick ..to replace the skimpy washer(s).  The front-bottom wishbone bush has been dismantled, cleaned out, lubricated and reassembled onto the replacement double-stud bracket.  These bushes have a spacer tube inside them and so I've torqued the nut to 30 ft.lb. The joint now pivots freely and smoothly but it is not slack.   The rear (black) single stud bracket is bent and twisted ..just because it can be I guess. , and it's very tight to move. 

I pulled that apart and its poly bush is excessively worn, both the spacer tube is a loose fit on the through-bolt, and the polybush is a loose fit on the spacer. . . 

 

^ I've decided to bodge it (..until I get replacement polybush) and have used a wrap of coke tin around the through bolt and a double wrap of coke tin around the spacer tub.  Suitably lubricated and reassembled onto the double-stud bracket, the slack is gone.  But it's another re-do-it task on my perpetual job list.

Moving on, encouraged by the postman delivering the replacement bottom fulcrum pin & bush kits   . . .

^ TR-GB part number SS7 for the TR4a-6. I was pleasantly surprised to see the weather caps with o-rings included ..which weren't in the photograph on their website ..and which I forgot to order.  So for under £42 (for both sides) including delivery it seems good value.  As other companies are charging double this figure I guess theirs are stainless steel &/or a brand-name polybushes.  These metal bits, including the spacer tubes are bright-nickle-plated, but with Copaslip on the through bolt, lubricant on the bushes, and waterproof grease smeared over their outsides - they ought to last the week out ..after all it is Friday today. 

Reassembly time . . .

  

^ I lubricated the inside of the weather cap and fitted the o-ring is fitted into it, and then the polybush goes through it as illustrated. The polybush, with captive weather-cap is then an interference push fit into the end of the wishbone arm.  It goes in but needs a bit of pushing. I did this by placing one of the large plain washers, supplied in the kit, on the edge of the work bench with the bush face-up on that (so as not to buckle the flange of the cap) and then pushed the arm down onto it.

^ repeat with weather cap, o-ring and polybush on the other side of the arm, and then insert the through-bolt with spacer tub and end washer.  You may note that the spacer tub is not all bright and shiny and new. That's because the new one didn't fit on the bolt, so I'm re-using the old ones.  The new through-bolt is a tad larger in diameter than the old one ..which might be attributed to its nickle plating ?  However, the new bolt is tight fit into the bottom trunnion, whereas the old bolt (with no plating) was a little loose. Thankfully the old bottom fulcrum pin came apart with its spacers undamaged. 

^ ensuring I got the arms the right way around, and the right way up.. I assembled them onto the upright's bottom trunnion.   Note ; the large plain washers (supplied) are in each weather-shield cap. These I lubricated with turbo-gel against the polybush and with waterproof grease on their outside faces. The through bolt, and the inside of each spacer tube is of course liberally coated with Copaslip.    

 

^ I tightened the nut until the arms were able to pivot on their bushes freely and smoothly, but neither too slack nor too tight. There is no slop in this assembly nor any binding. Turning the through-bolt, so the flat of its head was flat to the disk, did adjusted things so I adjusted things several times over until I was happy with the tension. I also fitted an extra washer under the nut ..to get the split pin through the castellation, without compromising that tension.   The split pin was too long so I cut it to size before locking everything up - Job Done.

  

^ before refitting the front suspension assembly - I wanted to clean the threads of those top fulcrum bolt holes. The suspension in the meantime was playing dead on the workmate 

To be honest, by this time I had had enough.  It was quarter past three and on this dull day - getting dark already.   After a week of it ..on just one side of the car - I'm tired of being filthy dirty, slimy with grease, crawling under the car, laying down on cold paving slabs, and in general doing (..or part doing) a whole list of jobs that I feel ought to have been right on a car that came back from a professional chassis swap.   Gripe over - I'm just a little too tired for this sh.... 

One last effort . . .

^ a task that I'm sure would be easier with two persons ..preferably anyone but me !   Literally kicking the trolley-jack to maneuver the suspension into place, I first loosely fitted one of the top fulcrum bolts.  At this conjuncture the bottom wishbone is just hanging down.  

Dropping the track rod end back into place helped as an arm to lever the hub around, to swing and shove the bottom wishbone brackets into the chassis mounts.

^ with a huff and a puff  - progress   ..the bottom wishbone brackets sitting flat against their chassis mounts.  

  

OK.. that'll do for tonight. These brackets are now double-stud type, with sensible (..IMO ) backing plates and new nyloc nuts.  And the bottom outer fulcrum is no longer seized. 

The suspension now swings up n' down easily and silently.  I wonder if, without all those joint being seized or overly tight, I'll now need new dampers ?

Bidding you a good evening, and a great weekend.

Pete

 

 

[Mk2 Chopper]

Great work, and plenty of info and pictures as always.

Gareth

[Hamish]

Well done Pete I admire your tenacity in less than ideal conditions I guess.

I plan on revisiting the suspension on my 3a this winter and it’s always inspirational and encouraging to see others successfully complete similar tasks. 
 

[Ian Vincent]

1 hour ago, Hamish said:

I plan on revisiting the suspension on my 3a this winter and it’s always inspirational and encouraging to see others successfully complete similar tasks. 
 

Winter is on the way out, you need to get on with it Hamish. 

Rgds Ian

PS I dismantled mine last year to correct a knock caused by disintegrating roll bar bushes but I found plenty of other things to address. 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

15 hours ago, Bfg said:

Having yesterday made the first backing plate, for behind the lower wishbone's chassis mount, today I made the other for this side. . .

^ the wishbones are reversed in this photo, ie the front one is to the left and the rear on the right.  The 2nd backing plate I made (again from recycled steel) is much the same for either, and both are 4mm thick ..to replace the skimpy washer(s).  The front-bottom wishbone bush has been dismantled, cleaned out, lubricated and reassembled onto the replacement double-stud bracket.  These bushes have a spacer tube inside them and so I've torqued the nut to 30 ft.lb. The joint now pivots freely and smoothly but it is not slack.   The rear (black) single stud bracket is bent and twisted ..just because it can be I guess. , and it's very tight to move. 

I pulled that apart and its poly bush is excessively worn, both the spacer tube is a loose fit on the through-bolt, and the polybush is a loose fit on the spacer. . . 

 

^ I've decided to bodge it (..until I get replacement polybush) and have used a wrap of coke tin around the through bolt and a double wrap of coke tin around the spacer tub.  Suitably lubricated and reassembled onto the double-stud bracket, the slack is gone.  But it's another re-do-it task on my perpetual job list.

Moving on, encouraged by the postman delivering the replacement bottom fulcrum pin & bush kits   . . .

^ TR-GB part number SS7 for the TR4a-6. I was pleasantly surprised to see the weather caps with o-rings included ..which weren't in the photograph on their website ..and which I forgot to order.  So for under £42 (for both sides) including delivery it seems good value.  As other companies are charging double this figure I guess theirs are stainless steel &/or a brand-name polybushes.  These metal bits, including the spacer tubes are bright-nickle-plated, but with Copaslip on the through bolt, lubricant on the bushes, and waterproof grease smeared over their outsides - they ought to last the week out ..after all it is Friday today. 

Reassembly time . . .

  

^ I lubricated the inside of the weather cap and fitted the o-ring is fitted into it, and then the polybush goes through it as illustrated. The polybush, with captive weather-cap is then an interference push fit into the end of the wishbone arm.  It goes in but needs a bit of pushing. I did this by placing one of the large plain washers, supplied in the kit, on the edge of the work bench with the bush face-up on that (so as not to buckle the flange of the cap) and then pushed the arm down onto it.

^ repeat with weather cap, o-ring and polybush on the other side of the arm, and then insert the through-bolt with spacer tub and end washer.  You may note that the spacer tub is not all bright and shiny and new. That's because the new one didn't fit on the bolt, so I'm re-using the old ones.  The new through-bolt is a tad larger in diameter than the old one ..which might be attributed to its nickle plating ?  However, the new bolt is tight fit into the bottom trunnion, whereas the old bolt (with no plating) was a little loose. Thankfully the old bottom fulcrum pin came apart with its spacers undamaged. 

^ ensuring I got the arms the right way around, and the right way up.. I assembled them onto the upright's bottom trunnion.   Note ; the large plain washers (supplied) are in each weather-shield cap. These I lubricated with turbo-gel against the polybush and with waterproof grease on their outside faces. The through bolt, and the inside of each spacer tube is of course liberally coated with Copaslip.    

 

^ I tightened the nut until the arms were able to pivot on their bushes freely and smoothly, but neither too slack nor too tight. There is no slop in this assembly nor any binding. Turning the through-bolt, so the flat of its head was flat to the disk, did adjusted things so I adjusted things several times over until I was happy with the tension. I also fitted an extra washer under the nut ..to get the split pin through the castellation, without compromising that tension.   The split pin was too long so I cut it to size before locking everything up - Job Done.

  

^ before refitting the front suspension assembly - I wanted to clean the threads of those top fulcrum bolt holes. The suspension in the meantime was playing dead on the workmate 

To be honest, by this time I had had enough.  It was quarter past three and on this dull day - getting dark already.   After a week of it ..on just one side of the car - I'm tired of being filthy dirty, slimy with grease, crawling under the car, laying down on cold paving slabs, and in general doing (..or part doing) a whole list of jobs that I feel ought to have been right on a car that came back from a professional chassis swap.   Gripe over - I'm just a little too tired for this sh.... 

One last effort . . .

^ a task that I'm sure would be easier with two persons ..preferably anyone but me !   Literally kicking the trolley-jack to maneuver the suspension into place, I first loosely fitted one of the top fulcrum bolts.  At this conjuncture the bottom wishbone is just hanging down.  

Dropping the track rod end back into place helped as an arm to lever the hub around, to swing and shove the bottom wishbone brackets into the chassis mounts.

^ with a huff and a puff  - progress   ..the bottom wishbone brackets sitting flat against their chassis mounts.  

  

OK.. that'll do for tonight. These brackets are now double-stud type, with sensible (..IMO ) backing plates and new nyloc nuts.  And the bottom outer fulcrum is no longer seized. 

The suspension now swings up n' down easily and silently.  I wonder if, without all those joint being seized or overly tight, I'll now need new dampers ?

Bidding you a good evening, and a great weekend.

Pete

 

 

Were there any markings on the head of the trunion bolt?

Looks like the specialists are back selling a B&Q commercial bolt rather than HT bolts for this application. (Race to the bottom on pricing, just like the MG world).  The kit part number on the bag is a vague reference to the old Quinten Hazel kit number  (QSK200S)  The thread of the bolt is too long to my mind and should be phosphate coated not bright zinc finish. No doubt the kit supplier copied another kit, which was a copy of another etc. and the first a copy of the original Triumph items, done to reduce price.

Type in 139835, bolt part number, and you will find the drawing I did in 1989 of this bolt to get it made correctly for Cox & Buckles.  As far as I am aware there is only one company in UK that still make this item in the small volumes the classic car world demand.

 

PS Pete, turn the front steering to full lock and check the additional thread of the trunion bolt, sticking out the nut, does not scrape your disc.

PPS  Stroke the metal thrust washers with a file, I think they should be hardened.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Z320]

there are some things to say, and YES, the washers have go be hardened and not zinc coated mild steel

 

(I wonder, for most issues I can use stock photos, all used several times?)

Edited January 14, 2023 by Z320

[stuart]

FWIW you can still buy a complete inner lower wishbone mounting box and they are a lot easier to fit than p**s about repairing one that has been pulled through. Also have you get the extra re-enforcing plates added to the side of the boxes Pete a la TR5/6?

Stuart.

 

[Jtex60easy]

Pete, thank you for for another round of critical thinking and effective work. I am going to mark this section in my workbook. I want to show it to guys who are just starting to get involved with their projects and are naive about what lies before them. 
    What has been facing the more experienced owner/builder of old cars in the past five or six years on this side of the pond is the quality of assembly hardware. Marco’s photos show what I have seen on other applications. One prevalent ruse is matte bronze paint sprayed on a soft metal to mimic a true grade 8 product. I have found it is possible to get bad hardware even from companies who have long-standing ethical reputations. I can see a verifiable hardness tester in my garage sometime in the coming seasons.

James

[Z320]

Sorry Pete,

my wife was out with me for shopping and I was not able to answer detailed on your post.

The hole assembly of nut - hardened washer - distancer - hardened washer and so on and on,

on the browned quality bolt has to be locked TIGHT and not slack or anything between.

The washers have to be hardened to avoid damage on them by the distancers.

On the next photo you see rubbish and good parts.

I went through another dark and deep valley.

Locked tight the assembly is a solid metal unit and the POM bushes (this is mostly not Nylon), pressed tight in the wishbones, slide on the steel distancers.

For this a high demand for the correct dimensions is needed!

The distancers have to be about 1/10 mm longer than the POM bushes pressed in the wishbones, the dust washers below the flanges.

The way you see it on the photo the distancer have to move tight in the POM bushes.

If the bushes are shorter than the POM bushes there are 3 possibilities:

1st: the new bushes are too short, this was the case with my repair set,

also my distancers have been to small and felt straight through the bushes,

all unbelievable rubbish and in the bin

2nd: the new POM bushes do not have the correct dimensions

3rd: one more restorer overdid it with paint or even @&€!!@ powder on the wishbones!

For my taste, if have to do the hole thing again you could use much less grease.

Ciao, Marco 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Z320

[Bfg]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:43 AM, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Were there any markings on the head of the trunion bolt?

Looks like the specialists are back selling a B&Q commercial bolt rather than HT bolts for this application. (Race to the bottom on pricing, just like the MG world).  The kit part number on the bag is a vague reference to the old Quinten Hazel kit number  (QSK200S)  The thread of the bolt is too long to my mind and should be phosphate coated not bright zinc finish. No doubt the kit supplier copied another kit, which was a copy of another etc. and the first a copy of the original Triumph items, done to reduce price.

Type in 139835, bolt part number, and you will find the drawing I did in 1989 of this bolt to get it made correctly for Cox & Buckles.  As far as I am aware there is only one company in UK that still make this item in the small volumes the classic car world demand.

 

PS Pete, turn the front steering to full lock and check the additional thread of the trunion bolt, sticking out the nut, does not scrape your disc.

PPS  Stroke the metal thrust washers with a file, I think they should be hardened.

Thank You Peter, 

The bolt head markings (three radial lines) are for grade-5 UNF 3F.  I don't know what the 3F signifies but is perhaps the manufacturer ? 

^ The UNF reference to the thread is obvious, and grade-5 signifies a lower grade of Medium Carbon steel - quenched and tempered ..which I understand to mean surface hardening.  Medium carbon steel would be appropriate for suspension parts, which should not be so hard as to be brittle, although perhaps grade-8 might be marginally better. As the bolt fits into a brass trunnion, then I cannot see it makes much difference either way. A half inch diameter grade-5 bolt isn't going to shear off any time before the whole of the front of the car is buckled under !  

I must confess to not being familiar with the three radial lines not being aligned to the points on the head, but this chart shows them. Conversely the bolts might be chinese copies made by people who don't recognised their significance.

I definitely agree with what you say about the threaded length of the supplied bolts...

^ this, having structural components mated onto a thread rather than plain shank, is really poor engineering practice. Those threads will cut into the inside of the spacer tubes &/or flatten off.  The thread's reduce diameter means that there is already a bit of slop in tightness of that connection .. and with wear - there will soon be very much more.  And that looseness will result in uneven loading / twist on the upright post - which will soon wear its hole on one side.  The previously fitted through-bolt had just 4mm more plain shank length and so was also unsuitable.  I will go to Suffolk Fasteners to see if they have a couple of longer grade-8 bolts (with longer plain shanks) which I can cut (the thread off) to length and drill for the split pin. Again it's on my PJ list (..perpetual job list).

The washers I agree could be better / harder to lessen denting and wear from the very ends of the spacer tubes (see photo below) and perhaps also resist dishing. I suspected that this would only be an issue after a considerable number of miles (..that is if they hadn't already rusted away in the meantime !) - but reading Marco's post and seeing his photo teaches me otherwise.  Marco's photo of a cracked and broken up washer is of course more likely with hardened (too brittle) steel rather than that of a more ductile specification ..so we need to find the middle ground. 

 

^ Katie's  rubber steering-lock buffer (red arrow) has perished and is cracked ..so that again is on my PJ list, and I've noted a score on the back face of the disc where the nut head (second photo) has worn into it.  I've heeded Stuart's warning that both the bolt and castellated nut head need to be flat to the disk. Thank you again Stuart.  

 

Below,  Marco's advice about the length of the nylon / polybushes bushes versus the spacer tubes - is also very correct . . .

On 1/14/2023 at 4:50 PM, Z320 said:

...

Locked tight the assembly is a solid metal unit and the POM bushes (this is mostly not Nylon), pressed tight in the wishbones, slide on the steel distancers.

For this a high demand for the correct dimensions is needed!

The distancers have to be about 1/10 mm longer than the POM bushes pressed in the wishbones, the dust washers below the flanges.

The way you see it on the photo the distancer have to move tight in the POM bushes.

Ciao, Marco

^ " about 1/10 mm"  or 0.004" is enough free length so the polybush is able to freely pivot / turn around the spacer tube, which itself should be locked tight to the trunnion-upright by the through bolt.  If the spacer-tubes are too short (..or the polybushes too long) &/or if the washers are too soft a metal and are dented in (as in my photo above) - then the ends of the polybush are squeezed tight and it is locked ..so cannot rotate with the wishbone.  The wishbone then rotates on the outside of the polybush and premature wear will occur, particularly in their thrust faces.  End result ; a tight joint to start with and then sloppy.  

I thank you Marco for this advice I will correct mine when I change the through bolt. 

Clearly this is one of those jobs that looks pretty straight forward - but in which there are quite a few pitfalls for the unwary, the too tired, &/or for those working by torchlight in the cold.   

Thank you Again Peter, Stuart, and Marco for sharing your invaluable insight and experience. I am slow but i am learning.

Pete

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Bfg

[RobH]

For what it's worth, the 3F marking is  FONTANA LUIGI S.p.A.  so it is Italian not far eastern. 

A pdf of makers marks can be found here:

https://quicksearch.dla.mil/qsDocDetails.aspx?ident_number=66904

[john.r.davies]

Rob,

A most useful document!   But it seems not to be saveable.  is here a way of putting it onto my hard disc?

Thanks,

John

[Motorsport Mickey]

9 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Rob,

A most useful document!   But it seems not to be saveable.  is here a way of putting it onto my hard disc?

Thanks,

John

And for getting the CIA off my back !

WARNING: UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO THIS UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT COMPUTER SYSTEM AND SOFTWARE IS PROHIBITED BY PUBLIC LAW 99-474 (THE COMPUTER FRAUD AND ABUSE ACT OF 1986) AND CAN RESULT IN ADMINISTRATIVE, DISCIPLINARY OR CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS.

Mick Richards

[Ian Vincent]

34 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Rob,

A most useful document!   But it seems not to be saveable.  is here a way of putting it onto my hard disc?

Thanks,

John

I was able to download it onto my iMac without any difficulty John.

Rgds Ian

[Z320]

Hi Pete,

the hardened washer is only cracked because I smashed it with a hammer to show it is hardened!

And the mild steel one is bended to show it is mild steel, will bend and not brake.

Ciao, Marco

Edited January 15, 2023 by Z320

[RobH]

47 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

is here a way of putting it onto my hard disc?

 

Sorry John - can't help you there, don't know enough about MS Windows. 

[stillp]

1 hour ago, john.r.davies said:

Rob,

A most useful document!   But it seems not to be saveable.  is here a way of putting it onto my hard disc?

Thanks,

John

There's a "Download File" icon near the top right of the document window. Click that and it'll be in your Downloads folder. You can then move it where you want.

Pete

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Pete.  The lock stock is a steel item held to the trunion with an hex head screw.  
Pt no 156111.  https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/stop-steering-lock-156111.html

I think I read that someone had produced this as an eccentric stop, like the sidescreen cars had.  The sidescreen car one is not tall enough for an IRS car so cannot be used as a direct fitment without the addition of a spacer.
 

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Pete.  The lock stock is a steel item held to the trunion with an hex head screw.  

Thanks Peter,

As you might gather I hadn't yet looked it up, but seeing that it's steel I can probably find something to fit ..although I think yellow metal would be more appropriate.  

Pete

[Z320]

Hi Pete,

I was in my workshop and finally found my "trunnions treasure box".

In there the original bolts, stamped "UNF DY TSA" and "10.9", I changed 10 years ago to new 5-grade "JH".

Also in there (perhaps) the original POM bushes, dust washers and distancers,

but to calculate the play I must measure the wishbones (I can't, they are in the car!).

I remember 10 years ago I made a combination and modification to 0.1 mm play.

Perhaps the time has come for me to have a check and swap back to the original bolts?

But currently I have more interesting work.

Ciao, Marco

Edited January 15, 2023 by Z320

[john.r.davies]

3 hours ago, Ian Vincent said:

I was able to download it onto my iMac without any difficulty John.

Rgds Ian

Was here a "File" drop down menu, Ian?    Or did you do it another way?

Jhn

[MilesA]

John

If you cannot download, just screenshot it. I use this function a lot for parts of documents, photos etc.

Miles

[Ian Vincent]

9 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

Was here a "File" drop down menu, Ian?    Or did you do it another way?

Jhn

I opened the document and there was a tab at the top of the screen for ‘download’. If you want me to send you a copy just PM your email address. 

Rgds Ian

[john.r.davies]

Thank you, Ian!   An Ah! moment, as I looked for and found an icon for a floppy disc(! who uses those now?)

Saved to my hard disc!  Thanks again.

John

PS I noted the logo on the title page "US Dept.of Defence" and wondered that it was so available.  Then this time, it took three goes to download it, each time due to the Bluetooth link to my Broadband feed failing.    Oooeer, missus, I thought.  Is the CIA, or IMF on my case? Should I expect a visit from a fleet of blacked out SUVs, full of heavies in shades?    Is Tom Cruise really three feet shorter than I am?