That was a year that was..

[Bfg]

Question ;   What's the cause of the front suspension wishbone bushes groaning as I move the wishbones up and down ? (there's no spring or damper fitted at the moment). The inner fulcrum bushes (top and bottom) sound like dry rubber, but I can see red polybushes in there and there appears to have been lubrication.  Resting fingers on those inner wishbone ends, as I lift and lower the hub, there's vibration like dry rubber bush slipping.    

 

I'll pull them apart and lubricate each with silicon grease, but I wondered if perhaps there was something I should know about their tightness.

I had noted the front suspension groaning (when pushing down on the front wings) before the chassis change, so although M&T had them all apart - it seems unlikely that its been dealt with and is now re-occuring.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Pete

p.s. New lower outer fulcrum kits ordered from TRGB this morning. Hopefully I'll have the car back on the road for an outing on Sunday morning.

[Charlie D]

 

15 minutes ago, Bfg said:

...What's the cause of the front suspension wishbone bushes groaning...

I think your Katie is saying to herself:

 “If it’s not one thing it’s another! Is he EVER going to stop pulling me apart?” 

[Bfg]

  Thanks Charlie ..or is she's saying "Why the xxxx has it taken so long to get around to doing this job ! ?"

This is winter.. when we have an opportunity to get on with jobs that would interfere with our springtime, summer and autumn outings 

[trchris]

Hi Pete

Do the wishbones move freely up and down? or do you need to pull and push quite hard? as it could be the bushes binding while your in this position I would remove them and re-lube

Chris 

[stuart]

Couple of things, the red bushes are often too hard anyway as theyre normally denoting race spec. I would fit the poly ones like these https://www.superflex.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SF378-0288AK

Normally when tightening up the nuts on each end of that bracket you can go all the way till you run out of thread but sometimes not quite hence the castle nuts ability to be set in any position and pinned but the arms must be able to move up and down without binding.

Also FWIW I notice your front body mounts dont seem to have any rubber shims fitted, instead it looks like a square metal plate, this will not help you vibration transference.

Stuart.

[Bfg]

Thanks Chris, the wishbones do move sorta freely ..save the vibration which is like using a pencil eraser / rubber in each joint.  As you say it's best to take them apart to inspect and re-lube.

Pete

[Bfg]

10 hours ago, stuart said:

Couple of things, the red bushes are often too hard anyway as they're normally denoting race spec. I would fit the poly ones like these https://www.superflex.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SF378-0288AK

Normally when tightening up the nuts on each end of that bracket you can go all the way till you run out of thread but sometimes not quite hence the castle nuts ability to be set in any position and pinned but the arms must be able to move up and down without binding.

Also FWIW I notice your front body mounts don't seem to have any rubber shims fitted, instead it looks like a square metal plate, this will not help you vibration transference.

Stuart.

Thanks Stuart,  I accept the red polybushes are often too hard.  I don't know if these are, or else just happened to be coloured red. When I fitted the red polybushes into the training arm I replaced - I didn't consider them overly hard to deflect as I pressed them in.  These on the front were I believe bought at the same time (many years ago) from TRGB.

I now have the wishbones off and have managed to get the seized lower fulcrum bolt and bushes apart. With the suspension assembly on the work-mate one of the bottom bushes and bracket is free to turn, the other bottom one snags like a rubber, and the two top ones, still on the upper fulcrum pin are so tight that I can only rotate that pin with both hands.  I haven't dismantled it yet, but guess M&T's mechanic got those nuts pretty tight.  Perhaps he was just in a fed up mood that day ..having originally fitted them the wrong way around for a 4A. I'll dismantle it and re-lubricate with silicon grease.

The bottom brackets I need to take off anyway, to swap with replacement brackets I've subsequently bought with two studs. I'll also make and fit plates into the back of the chassis brackets. The small mild steel washers he'd fitted have dished in.

Re. the body mount, thanks for keeping an eye out and advising.  There is a 4mm or 5mm thk rubber packer hidden between the square plate and the body mount, and then another rubber packer on the inside under a thick 40mm dia body washer ..before the nut.

Cheers, Pete

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bfg

[PodOne]

Hi Pete

An excellent read as ever kinda wish I had a TR4 as well to play with!

From the sounds of it the bushes are toast and need replacement.

Consider also Super Pro. Bit more expensive but after trying various poly bushes in a few cars over the years I've found the Super Pro the best in terms of ride and control they offer reduced stiction and the wishbones behave as if on bearings.

Andy

 

[Bfg]

Thanks Andy, and for the recommendation.

There are a number of TR4's around at this time of year but if you were to buy one - it would most likely interfere with your TR6 restoration. 

Too many toys my friend makes for upf's (unfinished project frustrations).
Pete

 

 

[PodOne]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

Too many toys my friend makes for upf's (unfinished project frustrations).

Very true Pete I need to finish this one off, but I have just enough room I recon for one more project once I finally give up work 

[Bfg]

Following the encouraging progress I'd made on getting Katie's  lower trunnion / fulcrum assembly to loosen - today I started off with this . . .

^ With the road-spring-pan removed from the bottom of the lower wishbone, each leg of the wishbone could (..if they weren't seized onto the through bolt) move a little further away from the others.   As hoped.. the steel spacers within the bushes were not equally seized (as tightly as one another !) onto the bolt, and so with the castle nut reversed and set to be level with the end of the bolt's thread - I could clout its end ..and that achieved a small amount of movement.. the opening up of a gap between the rear wishbone leg and the steering trunnion's upright.   Excellent !

It couldn't however go very far because the bolt was mostly seized into the front wishbone leg (the underside of which can be seen on the RHS of the above photo).  For the wishbones to have enough free movement away from one another, to at least get the rear wishbone leg off the through-bolt, the wishbones inner end would have to be free of the constraints of their chassis brackets..  ie. the whole suspension assembly would have to come off the car. 

Thankfully the design allows the brake caliper to be undone and moved aside without undoing any hydraulic connection.  The caliper is held in place with two bolts, from the inner wheel-arch side, and then there's also a bracket behind there ..to support the hydraulic pipe. That too needs to be released (one nut ..which happened to be missing on Katie ) from a stud into the back of the upright hub assembly.  I hooked the caliper up with wire from two of the wing fastening screws, which project into the top of the wheel-arch.

^ The steering's tie-rod ball-jointed end also has to be released from the hub's steering lever-arm (aka ; tie rod arm).  I've borrowed this breaker tool from my friend Andrew. It's simple to use .. just ease the rubber boot up so that the cast forks of the tool can sit directly onto the end of the lever-arm, tighten its bolt against the bottom thread of the tie-rod's ball joint, and give the bottom of tool's bolt a confidently sharp hit, upwards, with a hammer.  

  

^ Next up I undid the wishbone's bottom inner fulcrum brackets (bolted to the chassis brackets), followed by the top inner fulcrum which is bolted to the top of the chassis' suspension tower in the wheel-arch again.   That was awkward because two of the four bolt threads had been chewed up. I'll need to replace those bolts and see if I can get in there with a tap to clean out the captive nuts in the chassis tower. 

That's it..  the suspension can be lifted off the trolley jack, off the car and out of the wheel-arch ..as an assembly.

^ On the floor and soon to be on the bench where it's easier to work.  With all the cast iron - there's not much that's lightweight on these old TR's.  From this photo you can see how, with the bottom, outer fulcrum's nut removed, the lower wishbone's rear leg might be pulled back ..off the otherwise seized through bolt. 

 

^ all together now  "Three wheels on my wagon and I'm just .... " 

^ with the rear lower wishbone arm removed, I replaced the bottom fulcrum's castle nut (reverse way around again) and tapped (firmly !) the seized bolt out.  

Terrific ! Success !   Hurrah !    

       ..I really wasn't looking forward to trying to cut that size of toughened bolt out.

  

^ after a bit of cleaning up in white spirits, I found the bits mostly serviceable. The dust collars, being so thin a metal, are a bit iffy - but if pushed they could be reused. And the nut & through-bolt, washers, spacer tubes and polybushes are certainly OK.  I have of course ordered new replacements.   

^ It's now no wonder that the suspension creaked and groaned. and that I could barely turn the poly-bushed pin by hand. The tightness of the castle nuts on the upper wishbone's inner fulcrum pin proved difficult.  Holding that cast iron pin wasn't easy, and the force needed to get the nuts undone was chewing up a good work-mate.   This didn't work !   

^ One G-clamp didn't work either, the bench still wasn't strong enough. I had to lock the workmate up with two G-clamps and a thick piece of steel plate to stop that fulcrum pin from turning. I don't know what force was required but you can see the length of extension I used.  The torque setting in the manual (Haynes is easier to find) recommends 26 - 40 lb.ft. for the original rubber bushes. Why such a broad range I do not know. For red-polybushes, which don't flex anywhere nearly as much as rubber, I'll probably use 20 lb.ft.  and if I note bump steer then I'll pinch them all up just a little more.

Once released and dismantled I found the grease inside the bush to be dry.   

Today's weather was very mild this morning but by 3 o'clock it was raining, very blustery and cold ..oh and getting dark. So that was it. and early finish today.

Useful progress has been made and I've now learnt how to dismantle the front suspension. I'm well-pleased that the bottom trunnion / outer fulcrum bolt came out, without a day of cutting and hammering being required.  And I'm similarly glad to have discovered why Katie's  suspension groaned ..it was simply bolted up too flipping tight by far ..or whatever words you may choose to substitute, and then also was dry of lubrication in all the bushes. Changing the bottom wishbone's chassis brackets to the two stud version will give me peace of mind.  And all that added to yesterday's tasks regarding spring stiffness / ride height - I feel that I'm well on the way to getting the front suspension sorted.  It was not a job I wanted to do, and so very much didn't look forward to getting on with, but by God it's happening now !

I bid you a good evening gentlemen.  Thanks to each for your input and advice today - much appreciated 

Pete.

 

p.s. I'll check for typos tomorrow, now is supper time

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Bfg

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, PodOne said:

Very true Pete I need to finish this one off, but I have just enough room I recon for one more project once I finally give up work 

That's what retirement is for - to finish projects that we never completed when we were in paid work 

[Z320]

Hi Pete,

you overcharge me with text and questions;

so I just give you a few answers to my assessement that may help you (or not).

Looking on period photos you will notice our TRs always have been some "high-wheeled".

I use 185/80 R15 tyres, they fill the wheel arch some better than the 165/80 R15 tyres.

Alec Pringle did everything correct with his too - for TR2-4, the 4 bolts are in different distance on the TR4A-6 spring pan.

I sold a lot of this compressors, but with a steel ball on the lower end, so you can work from below.

Also a lot for Jaguars (photo). I'm pretty shure you have fantasy enoug to make one your own.

Put a wooden latch between the upper wishbones and the spring dome to keep them up and expand the spring.

Spring rate is constant all the way and in driving position the load is about 500 kg.

My springs are lowered by a company for 20 mm (or 25 mm), this is double lowerded on the wheel arch with the 4A-6 axle (40 mm).

Lowering the spring brings you in problems with the limited way of travel of the shock absobers, I hopped on the rubber stops.

So I also had to react:

on my Spax shock absorbers I cut the rubber 20 mm shorter,

with my „new“ Monroes I had to lower the lower brackets to get way of travel back.

Not only the PU-bushes can squeek, also worn shock absorbers (had Spax), please test. You have them out.

I use Superflex with a rhombic surface inside - to keep some silicon gerase in there when pushing them on the falcumn pin.

  I hope this pushes you 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Z320

[trchris]

Hi Pete

Those lower wishbone mounting brackets seem to me as only having one stud fixings? unless I’m missing something there should be 2 per bracket it maybe the pictures are hiding one and it’s my eyesight but if not you should get them changed and not adding wood to the fire shouldn’t have been re fitted during your chassis change 

you can shoot me if I’ve got it wrong 

Chris

 

[Motorsport Mickey]

Good spot Chris...but Pete knows.

"Changing the bottom wishbone's chassis brackets to the two stud version will give me peace of mind." is what he said in his post about 2 posts previous.

I'm still surprised after about 30 years when these single bolt brackets were prevalent, that they still come out of the woodwork. I'd hoped they'd all been found. An essential modification to twin bolts to help stop catastrophic failures which caused loss off life amongst TR owners in the past. Not helped by the grippier and wider tyres which are often fitted these days.

Mick Richards

[Bfg]

3 hours ago, trchris said:

Hi Pete

Those lower wishbone mounting brackets seem to me as only having one stud fixings? unless I’m missing something there should be 2 per bracket it maybe the pictures are hiding one and it’s my eyesight but if not you should get them changed and not adding wood to the fire shouldn’t have been re fitted during your chassis change 

you can shoot me if I’ve got it wrong 

Chris

  correct ..imo as well as yourself ..and the general consensus of opinion  . . .

 

9 hours ago, Bfg said:

The bottom brackets I need to take off anyway, to swap with replacement brackets I've subsequently bought with two studs. I'll also make and fit plates into the back of the chassis brackets. The small mild steel washers he'd fitted have dished in.

And yes I was rather upset with M&T when I'd bought a chassis off them with reinforced brackets, for double studs.. and only later discovered those bracket had not been fitted.  I was told by some that they are not strictly required - as Katie  is a TR4A and single stud brackets are 'original'  ..  So M&T were under no obligation to fit them unless I had specifically instructed and paid them extra to do so.  As the extras I asked for were not specifically itemised - I couldn't say much more that 'it was understood' that x , y & z would be done.   And yes., on top of the agreed cost of the chassis and its fitting - I paid thousands more for the mechanical work / extras I asked for  ..close to equaling again the originally quoted price (which included the chassis mods) . 

Hey ho.,  that's all in the past now and all parties have moved on.

I'll just get on and fix anything I'm not happy with. 

Pete

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bfg

[Z320]

This has been discussed here several times.

This year I checked 2 club mates front axle on their TR4A when I met them on car meetings,

and both still had the 1 bolt bracket. There are still most TR4A out there this way.

[Bfg]

Excellent Marco ..for your post of yesterday evening. I've only just read it and have found many points of interest - BIG Thank you 

Your ball jointed spring compressor looks great. I hope not to need one very often, so I can live without having one of my own.

Thank you for confirming the spring pan's stud patterns, for the damper bottom mountings, is different according to early or late TR models. I shall talk with Mr Pringle about the crude mod I made to his loaned tool. In the circumstance I think he will not mind.

Your own car's lowered suspension looks great, and the larger tyres do better fill the arches. I am surprised if you do not sometimes rub the wheel-arch with the tyre when you corner hard.  I do not try to lower my car below standard specification, as I like the look of Katie  without bumpers and being a little high, but I would like to level the ride height of front and rear axles to be more even. I also want to lessen the spring rate to back as she was before the chassis change. Now she feels as if she is sitting on top of her springs (at high motorways speeds and in fast cornering) rather than the car being settled into / cradled in its suspension. 

The knurled pattern within the Superflex bush does make sense to keep some lubrication in there. I like that. Next time I need new bushes I will watch out for that detail.  Yesterday I refitted the top fulcrum bush with synthetic lubricant gel with Teflon, rather than silicon grease, and pushed it on and off several times to try and the gel smeared over the pin.  I hope it is sufficient and is long lasting.

Thank you again for the push

Pete

[Nigel C]

Hi Pete,

Sadly Alec Pringle left us in June 2018. We helped him sell his Peerless shortly before he passed; he also donated a couple of very interesting documents to our archive. He was still passionate about our cars right to the end.

[rcreweread]

25 minutes ago, Nigel C said:

Hi Pete,

Sadly Alec Pringle left us in June 2018. We helped him sell his Peerless shortly before he passed; he also donated a couple of very interesting documents to our archive. He was still passionate about our cars right to the end.

Nigel - Pete was talking about Tom, not Alec. Tom gets along to our group meetings where Pete first met him

Cheers Rich 

[Nigel C]

DOH!

In his Dove I hope.

thanks Rich 

[Bfg]

Good Evening,  Not so nice weather today and my energy levels seem to be a little depleted.  Thursday is also cleaning day in the apartment - miserable task and time consuming when you're an untidy person   Nevertheless (just a little) more done . . .

 

^ Upper fulcrums dismantled for the polybushes and pins to be thoroughly cleaned ..and also the end faces of the casting which the polybushes are tightened against, before being reassembled with turbo gel and the nuts refitted. I torqued these to 20 ft.lb. and then tightened just a bit more to get the pins in.   ^^ After a bit of tarting up of the disc's shield (scraping off the loose paint and a quick coat of paint) and also pumping fresh grease into the outer ball joint.. the upper wishbone were reassembled onto the upright.  I'll schedule to replace that top ball joint soon, as it is not as smooth turning as it might be.

I did have a go at undoing the steering arm lever, but one of the nuts was seized on and I really didn't want to shear off the stud. It did unwind a thread or two as the stud pulled out, but I thought better of pushing my luck.  It re-tightened fine. I replaced the nut on the other end of the lever arm as its nyloc was barely gripping. I used medium strength Loctite on the thread ..just for reassurance.   

Moving on . . .

^ As Blue Peter used to say here are some we prepared earlier..  Bottom wishbone brackets each with two studs. I bought them second hand and cleaned them up months ago.

  

^ this is the RHS front chassis mount onto which the bottom wishbone bracket fitted.  I don't know what the hole on the right is for, but the top left hole is where the single stud bracket fits, and the hole below that has been drilled to take the later double-stud bracket ..except the holes are not in line, nor are the hole centres (distance apart) correct.  In short ; the bracket didn't fit without my first having filed the bottom hole slightly oval .  This sides rear bracket / mount's holes were similarly inaccurate, by about a millimeter..  so more filing.  This might account for why M&T's mechanic, I think underhandedly didn't fit double-stud brackets as expected  ..filing steel is too much like physical work and it's time consuming.

^^ The grease is a giveaway as to how flat the wishbone bracket fitted against this mounting. The second photo above shows just a little clearer that the suspension forces was pulling the single stud outwards and had dished the metal.  Gauged against a straight edge - the hole had pulled out by about a millimeter.  The way-too-small & skinny washer fitted behind it was likewise dished.  I fear an unfortunate kerbing would probably have torn the nut, with washer, through the plate.  And if you doubt that this could happen . . .

^  this is the back face of the rear, LHS bottom chassis mount (photo laying on its RH side) where the original single-stud of the wishbone bracket had previously pulled through. The chassis has been repaired by welding a plate over the hole, leaving no room for camber adjustment spacers.  Again a small skinny washer was under this bracket's single nut. It was an old nyloc that I feel ought to have been replaced.  

It's hidden under the paint but I hope that this repair plate was welded all the way around.  I see no evidence of cracked paint and so I feel it must have been.  If that is so - then this repair is strong enough for the job ..but it's lazy workmanship and poor engineering practice.  In my opinion the torn out plate should have been neatly cut out and new plate inserted flush with the original plane, and of course that should also have been welded continuously, all the way around.  As it is I'm not happy with having the second stud coming through to a stepped surface, where the second stud's nut, and its washer really ought to sit flat to the surface. . .

 

^ a crude solution, in lieu of doing it right at a later date, and very many times stronger than how is was.  Two thick spacer washers 1-1/4" (32mm) in diameter fill in the step level. Even these would have been better than the 1mm thk x 22mm diameter mild steel washer that was used..  but then I'm also adding a well-fitting plate behind those ..to distribute the stud (lower wishbone) loads not only through the repair plate, but also all around the perimeter of the original structure. 

The photos show the 'dry run' ..where I'm checking that the studs are long enough for nyloc nuts.

 

^ what was  -v-  what I'm now fitting. The 5/32" (4mm) thick square backing plate is recycled from my boat (hence a couple of surplus holes).  In that former life ( ..if a steel plate can be said to have a life ? ) it was fitted under the deck to take the loads of the mast's rigging.

And that's about all I got to do today...   Pathetic effort Pete - must try harder 2/10 

Pete

 

 

 

[Bfg]

12 minutes ago, Nigel C said:

DOH!

In his Dove I hope.

thanks Rich 

yes he will be. I'm very keen to.. but haven't personally seen the car yet, as I think he had some delays with having its roof resprayed. 

Pete

[rcreweread]

1 hour ago, Nigel C said:

DOH!

In his Dove I hope.

thanks Rich 

The Dove hasn't appeared yet but it's getting close!

Cheers Rich

[Charlie D]

I really could not understand what this business with single or double stud brackets was all about. I eventually looked in the parts manual and it was obvious. Your photos explain it all.

Have a 3A myself and I never realized that the lower wishbone mountings were totally different on a 4A and above. Given that, and the different trunion fitting (A removable through bolt as opposed to a fixed shaft through the trunion with a thread at each end which the earlier cars have) and I can see how much easier it must be to do work on the later cars than on the Sidescreen cars.

Charlie.