That was a year that was..

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

18 hours ago, RobH said:

For what it's worth, the 3F marking is  FONTANA LUIGI S.p.A.  so it is Italian not far eastern. 

A pdf of makers marks can be found here:

https://quicksearch.dla.mil/qsDocDetails.aspx?ident_number=66904

Not Quite...

They have manufacturers all over the world, which does not include China

[Z320]

Did we loose contact to TR issues?

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

No Marco  here are some dimensions that may be of use to you

 

Just fished through my front suspension spares boxes.

The 139835 bolts I have are marked 'T'  Which I would guess is the grade.

 

The steel bushes I have both new and used range from 1.172" to 1.175" long

The top hat flange of the nylons range from 0.068" to 0.071" thick . Both new and slightly worn.

Cannot get at the NOS lower front wishbones at present without help.  No doubt someone will have one knocking about.

[stuart]

20 hours ago, Bfg said:

? 

 

 

 

 

 

^ Katie's  rubber steering-lock buffer (red arrow) has perished and is cracked ..so that again is on my PJ list, and I've noted a score on the back face of the disc where the nut head (second photo) has worn into it.  I've heeded Stuart's warning that both the bolt and castellated nut head need to be flat to the disk. Thank you again Stuart.  

 

 

 

That rubber buffer is incorrect Pete there should be a steel lock stop item 84 here https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/steering-suspension/front-suspension/front-suspension-tr4a-1965-67.html

(If you want an excentric one then Revingtons do one)

Stuart.

[Z320]

1 hour ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

No Marco  here are some dimensions that may be of use to you

 

Just fished through my front suspension spares boxes.

The 139835 bolts I have are marked 'T'  Which I would guess is the grade.

 

The steel bushes I have both new and used range from 1.172" to 1.175" long

The top hat flange of the nylons range from 0.068" to 0.071" thick . Both new and slightly worn.

Cannot get at the NOS lower front wishbones at present without help.  No doubt someone will have one knocking about.

I also measure different dimensions

and I guess the wisbones are a minimum smaller than 1" (without paint).

The dust washers by the way are 0.7 mm.

Best would be the wishbones all have the same dimension and the POM bushes + steel distancers come in suitable dimensions.

 

[Bfg]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:42 PM, stuart said:

FWIW you can still buy a complete inner lower wishbone mounting box and they are a lot easier to fit than p**s about repairing one that has been pulled through. Also have you get the extra re-enforcing plates added to the side of the boxes Pete a la TR5/6?

Stuart.

Thanks Stuart,

From the parts catalogue I was aware of the new / replacement body mounts available. These having four holes so they can be used on either the left or right hand side of the chassis ..with double stud lower wishbone brackets.  And my good friend Rich C-R answered my query as to what the spare hole was for in Katie's  body mounts - likewise ; it was from the original brackets not being handed, but of course they were only for the single stud wishbone brackets. 

^ yes indeed, Katie's  replacement chassis does have "the extra re-enforcing plates added to the side of the chassis mount boxes, a la TR5/6" .. although the one side appears to be a home-made plate rather than the pressed-steel stiffening web.  

Of course.. if the plonker had welded them on the other way around, ie with the low cut web  away  from the suspension tower - then I'd have been able to get the poly-bush's through-bolt out !     I fear Darwin's theories about the evolution of this species must have hit a concrete block in this post-industrial-revolution-era.

- - -

On 1/15/2023 at 8:01 PM, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Pete.  The lock stock is a steel item held to the trunion with an hex head screw.  
Pt no 156111.  https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/stop-steering-lock-156111.html

I think I read that someone had produced this as an eccentric stop, like the sidescreen cars had.  The sidescreen car one is not tall enough for an IRS car so cannot be used as a direct fitment without the addition of a spacer.

Are you sure Triumph didn't fit a bit of perished rubber hose - like the one on Katie  ?   . . .

^ As it was too small to be of use, ie to make contact with the stop (before the disc hit) - it has lasted very well.

- - -

On 1/14/2023 at 4:50 PM, Z320 said:

The distancers have to be about 1/10 mm longer than the POM bushes pressed in the wishbones, the dust washers below the flanges.

The way you see it on the photo the distancer have to move tight in the POM bushes.

If the bushes are shorter than the POM bushes there are 3 possibilities:

1st: the new bushes are too short, this was the case with my repair set,

also my distancers have been to small and felt straight through the bushes,

all unbelievable rubbish and in the bin

2nd: the new POM bushes do not have the correct dimensions

3rd: one more restorer overdid it with paint or even @&€!!@ powder on the wishbones!

For my taste, if have to do the hole thing again you could use much less grease.

Ciao, Marco 

Thanks again Marco,

With Katie ; 1. both the old and the new distancer / spacer tubes, on which the POM bush should rotate, were / are too short.  And without those tube's length being greater / the tube projecting, even just a small amount, the POM bush gets clamped tight.  I have pulled mine apart again (on the LHS) and reassembled it without the dust / weather caps. I did dismantle / reassemble and try it with just the end-most dust caps in place, but still the tubes were too short and the fulcrum locked tight ..so now it has no dust caps. Waterproof grease will have to do the job of keeping the moisture & dust out, but with the thrust washers, tolerances suitably snug, and things bolted up tight - even water under pressure would not easily find its way in.  I tightened the through-bolt to 50 ft.lb. (which then backed it off, just a few degrees, to fit the split-pin) and can detect no play at all, but the fulcrum now pivots smoothly.

I did go shopping for longer 9/16" UNF bolts, which I could cut to length and fit - so the bush didn't sit on the bolt's thread, but my local stockist didn't have any.  I'll have to order a pair and I'll swap them out sometime ..preferably when it's not freezing outside.

Cheers to all,

Pete

 

   

[Z320]

Hi Pete,

did you measure how wide is the wishbone?

[Z320]

From the TR6 manual:

bolt through the trunnion is 9/16“, that‘s correct,

torque to lock the nut is 65 ft.lb / 90 Nm, that‘s TIGHT (as also 50 ft.lb),

sadly also there no description about how the check the dimension…..

According to no confirmation or protest to my post at this forum

TR6 owners are polite and thinking I’m overdoing / be an idiot

OR notice there is something wrong on their front axle…?

Edited January 18, 2023 by Z320

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

With soft metal thrust washers, when the bolt is tightened to the correct torque it will cause the edge of the hardened steel spacer tubes to dig into the thrust washers.   This will make the pom bush too tight on its thrust (side) faces.   If the thrust washers are hardened the compression into the face of the washer by the tube is reduced or eliminated.  

[Bfg]

Hi Marco, no I didn't measure the width of the wishbone.  with production tolerances and wear - it probably varies from one side of the car to the other anyway.

The TR6 workshop manual is clearly very much better than the the TR4 one then ..which is as confusing as it is helpful, not least because the TR4 and TR4A suspensions are different in a number of important points, including the lower outer fulcrum bushes and I see no torque figures given for the later car.

With suspension bushes - the technology has changed from distorting rubber to slipping polybushes and POM (..polyoxymethylene, also known as acetal, polyacetal, and polyformaldehyde) materials. The workshop manual cannot hope to give specifications for those changes, and the suppliers (.. the ones I used for these parts) are lax in not providing fitting instructions.  Until I read Peter's and your posts - I didn't understand what part of a polybush or POM pivoted / rotated / turned on what.  And that the polybush or POM should pivot / turn around the spacer tube. I got it wrong and had to do it again. 

But.. Katie's suspension did work when the chassis was cracked, when the suspension components were all locked up, things were assembled the wrong way around, with wrong parts, bodge repairs and twisted brackets, and seized bolts, stripped threads, without a steering lock, and even with bolts missing and the wrong washers and useless nylocs in place.  This suspension would also have worked when I put the lower trunnion assembly together - loosely.  Those parts would have worn in the wrong places and inevitably have damaged the upright's trunnion, and it might not have been as good as when correctly and accurately set up - but it would have worked ..and most of us average drivers would never have noticed any difference in suspension qualities of ride and handling.  We might get in a similar car and think that feels good, ..or not so good as our own car, but most of us simply don't have the skills, knowledge or experience to say why. 

In short ; Does one car handle better than another because its tyre pressures are a few psi different or because the polybushes / POM's have been fitted adjusted differently.?  Does one sort of grease or lubricant really work any better than another ?  Would I honestly be able to notice any difference if all the polybushes were Superpro or whatever, or if I spent £200 on a pair of trunnion kits rather than £40.?  And do I really care if they were to last 50 years, when in 15 years I'll be pushing up daisies ?   

Personally I do not think that others assess your opinion and advice as if you are an idiot or over doing things, any more than they think of myself.  You have the disadvantage of language on an English speaking forum, and I have the problem of trying to explain ..talking too much - so people's reading sometimes skip over a particular point.  I write, in part, because it helps me learn ..as in the old saying "you need to understand something yourself - before you can explain it to others".  And like you I choose to share the experience and what I learn  ..and anyone else can make up their own mind as to how they do things. They may just think "oh yeah" or "that's obvious" or they may regard what you or I write as utter codswallop. They may even make a suggestion of how better, or differently, to do it.  

I will never know what most think, but I do know that what I write is occasionally helpful to some ..and of controversial interest to others  

Pete

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Bfg

[Z320]

Hi Peter,

when I bought my TR4A it suffered from bad shaking and vibrations,

it was not possible to drive faster than 100 km/h without fear!

This was not caused by one problem but by a colourful bunch of small problems.

I needed years to find and cure them „all“.

And now I can drive the car with so much fun.

You know what I mean.

Marco

[stuart]

Peter the lock stop definitely doesnt have rubber round it, thats a bodge possibly done because the disc was rubbing on the trunnion through bolt if fitted incorrectly. You would have much reduced lock like that.

Stuart.

[Z320]

left: original? Right: DIY from a PO

Edited January 18, 2023 by Z320

[stuart]

5 minutes ago, Z320 said:

left: original? Right: DIY from a PO

To be honest Marco I would have said right hand one is original albeit worn off one one place and the left hand one non original.

Stuart.

[Z320]

Stuart, no problem.

The right one (next on the left side) was concentric and has been made flat to one side with a file.

This is why I think it‘s self made

[stuart]

44 minutes ago, Z320 said:

Stuart, no problem.

The right one (next on the left side) was concentric and has been made flat to one side with a file.

This is why I think it‘s self made

OK looking at that picture I think your correct.

Stuart.

[Bfg]

Not a whole lot of anything new to report on today, other than it's pretty cool to be lazing around on paving slabs. Still if I'd like to enjoy the car in the springtime and summer then this work is best done 'out of season'.  Looking on the bright side (literally) - the clear polythene poly-tunnel is good for natural light during the day . . .

^ With the chassis brackets and wishbone fulcrums sorted, save for wanting to find another through-bolt for the bottom trunnion - with a longer length of plain-shank which the bush can sit on - it was past due my putting things back together. The brake caliper was refitted this morning, as was the track rod end.  While the weather was still warm - I'd stripped the crusty paint off the top face of the spring pan and repainted it, so that was nicely cured and ready with the (original) lower-rated road springs to refit. . .

  

^ removing the support from the trolley jack, the wishbones swing all the way down  ..so the all-thread / compressor only had to wind the spring up by 3".  When the spring-pan was close to the bottom wishbone, I lifted the hub up and inserted a 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" block of wood between the upper wishbone and the suspension tower - so the pan's studs were at a better angle for fitting the pan onto, and so I could get the nut onto the inside studs.  With the pan located I wound the compressor up just enough to get the pan's nuts and their washers onto the wishbones through bolts ..and then pulled the pan into place with the six of those. 

Next up was to remove the spring compressor and to refit the damper in its place. Looking at the bottom brackets of the damper I noted things looked a bit odd - so I undid the through bolt to see what was what . . . 

^ The through-bolt is the wrong size. A 3/8" diameter bolt had been fitted where the holes in the brackets and the spacer tube through the damper's bottom bush are sized for a 7/16" diameter bolt.   I didn't have one, so again it's something to be shopped for and redone.  This was probably the source of one of the more obscure clonks.  Hey ho, I still can't get it all back together again today.. 

Moving on . . .

^ I still have the left-hand-side front-suspension to do.   same ol' thing again. . .

^ damper, road-spring and caliper off, inner wishbone chassis brackets undone, and an hour-long skirmish to get the track rod end to push out ..which again had me cussing the previous mechanic.   

Funny thing.. another five and a half hours crawling around under the car in close to zero temperatures wasn't part of the envisaged living-the-dream.

I'm out tomorrow, so I can look forward to another weekend under the car.  oh joy of joys.. 

Pete

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Bfg

[Bfg]

Friday morning I managed to do a couple of hours work before quickly showering and changing to go out to lunch. 

So the RHS front suspension was then on the bench, for me to battle with its lower-outer fulcrum / trunnion pin. . .

   

^ As on the LHS of the car - on the RHS, the rear wishbone arm became looser after the spring pan was removed, and then together with its POM bushes it came off easily enough. Its spacer tube was left still seized onto the through bolt and it took a fair bit of persuasion ..and damage to the through-bolt and its nut - but the assembly succumbed to the bigger hammer and finally freed off.

^ The through bolt was also seized in the upright and again the trunnion's spacer tube for the forward arm of the wishbone remains seized onto the bolt.  Thankfully again 'gentle persuasion' won over the need to be cut off.

I also managed to clean up the flaky paint and surface corrosion on this side's spring pan, and to quickly slap on a protective coat of POR.  

- - -

Today, temperatures outside reached a balmy 3-degress celsius here in Ipswich - but bright with sunshine, it was a tad warmer within Katie's  poly-tunnel.  Taking advantage of that, the objective was simply to do a bit of cleaning / and tarting up. . .

   

^ the single stud lower-inner fulcrum brackets were removed, and then it was just a matter of cleaning up and repainting the arms.  Because Katie  is intended as a driver rather than show car, after a good power-wire-brushing and degreasing - I simply used an aerosol primer and aerosol black paint for these.  I hope not to be looking at them very often anyway.!   The polybushes appear to be seviceable.

    

The upper-inner fulcrum I both cleaned up and reassembled with fresh lubricant. Beforehand the wishbones were turning on the polybushes, and now the polybushes are turning on the fulcrum pin. 

^ And finally for today a quick coat of black paint, over the silver coloured POR  I'd used on the spring pan.  Paint runs and drips were a free option ..so I had them !

The tarting-up paintwork I've done was more to get rid of the flaky paint that hold moisture.  I spray it all over with wax after assembly back on the car.  

As soon as the sun went behind the oak tree and apartment building - the temperature in the polytunnel took a sharp dive, so I call it a day.

I bid you a pleasant and good evening,

Pete

 

 

[Z320]

Pete,

you see the scratch in your brake disc?

Ciao, Marco 

[Bfg]

yes, unfortunately quite badly on this side ..again a piece of rubber hose was used instead of the steering stop, so the nut has extra flat corner points.  I like the way Triumph places a hole in the 'shield' so this can happen quietly.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Bfg

[Z320]

The construction is made according to limited space.

As many other constructions it works well, apart idiots do idiots things.

A friend of mine always states about spare part quality: 50% is on the other end of the tool.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Z320

[Bfg]

Again it was the designer engineer who might easily have allowed an extra 1/4" (6mm) offset so that this could never happen.  And/or have constructed a steering lock that could not be altered by wrong assembly ..as is done to restrict the angle that a motorcycle's front forks may turn.

Again, if there had been no hole in the shield - then the noise of that shield pushed hard and rubbing against the disc would have persons check to see the cause and to alter the orientation of the through bolt and its nut.

At the very minimum - the high probability of damage occurring, when the nut & bolt's flats are not orientated to the plane of the disc, should have been noted in the workshop manual.

But I do agree with you - insomuch as a prior owner of this car altered the specification and used rubber rather than steel to restrict the steering lock. 

Pete 

[stuart]

The lock stop on the earlier sidescreen cars has an offset hole so you can adjust the back/front lock. When they changed the suspension setup for the later cars the lock stop is non adjustable and it would be down to a sensible mechanic to check lock to lock that the trunnion through bolt had its flats in the correct orientation. I said "sensible" mechanics however theres no accounting for idiots Im afraid. Ive lost count of the number of TRs Ive seen with scored discs.

Stuart.

[Bfg]

The earliest postwar Sunbeam motorcycles 1946-49 had a steering lock that was marginal insomuch as ; if the petrol tank was mounted too high on its rubber blocks - then the handlebar clamps would dent the tank. This was changed on each subsequent model so it couldn't happen.  Triumph engineers either didn't receive the feedback from dealers or just ignored it.  

Hey ho, it is what it is now ..and part of the benefit of this forum is to warn other owners, as Stuart and others have now done for me.  Thank you Sirs. 

- - -

Today it was -1 degrees at 10am so I waited until the temperatures warmed to zero. No sunshine today to warm the polytunnel but cutting and drilling steel was OK. . .

  

^ again the hole for the 2nd stud of the RHS lower fulcrum / chassis brackets were incorrectly drilled, and so the bottom hole of each had to be made oval to get the studded bracket to fit.  Seen above is the rear lower wishbone chassis bracket.  As illustrated by the shim (used to adjust the wheel's camber) the wishbone's bracket couldn't / didn't fit straight because an inside corner weld, for the additional stiffening plate, was blobbed on the surface rather than nicely concave. 

^^ Copaslip grease seen in the second photo illustrates the twisted angle that the single-stud bracket had been fitted. This angle of twist would likewise be in the polybush, whose pivot axis was out of line with the forward of these wishbone bushes. 

^ I've relieved that weld a bit, but I didn't want to cut it all away,  Instead I've cut a notch into one of the camber-adjustment shims and also rounded its bottom corner to clear the weld.  The shim now sits straight and flat to the surface, which in turn will mean that the wishbone's bracket and polybush will also sit in axial plane.

 

^ I've also made a pair of thick backing plates for behind the chassis brackets.  They're of up-cycled steel, so a few extra holes ..but still very much better than the thin small washers that were fitted.

OK coffee break over, time for a little more work.  

The temperature out there is now 4 degrees warmer, and that seems to be good for most of the week.

Pete

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Bfg

[Z320]

5 hours ago, Bfg said:

Again it was the designer engineer who might easily have allowed an extra 1/4" (6mm) offset so that this could never happen.  And/or have constructed a steering lock that could not be altered by wrong assembly ..as is done to restrict the angle that a motorcycle's front forks may turn.

Again, if there had been no hole in the shield - then the noise of that shield pushed hard and rubbing against the disc would have persons check to see the cause and to alter the orientation of the through bolt and its nut.

At the very minimum - the high probability of damage occurring, when the nut & bolt's flats are not orientated to the plane of the disc, should have been noted in the workshop manual.

But I do agree with you - insomuch as a prior owner of this car altered the specification and used rubber rather than steel to restrict the steering lock. 

Pete 

 

German saying is "Hätte, hätte, Fahrradkette" ("should have, should have, bicycle chain")

What- you say this makes no sense? That's it!