That was a year that was..

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, Mk2 Chopper said:

And surely the fuse rating has to be enough for the highest draw (everything switched on/ being used on that circuit) rather than suited to individual components? 

Gareth

Yes indeed, with all being used at the same time, the 10-amp rated fuse (green wires from the fuse box) on Katie  is good for . . .

•  fuel gauge (stepped down to 5v)
•  temp gauge (also stepped down to 5v)
•  indicators or hazard-warning lights
•  brake lights
•  heater blower
•  wipers
•  screen washer pump
•  overdrive
• auxiliary / cigarette lighter / charger, which I mainly use for the Tom Tom

The horn has its own in-line fuse.

And the lighting circuits (and their switches) on my car use a 35-amp rated fuse (red wires from the fuse box) and that is good for . . .

• halogen H4 headlamps (which are incredibly bright on full beam)
• all the side-lights, including the extras I added within the headlamps, the side repeaters and number plate lights.
• all the instrument's illumination.

Katie now has LED side lights, brake lights and indicators, but they were tungsten beforehand.

Pete

 

[RobH]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

By the way the TR's light circuits are on another fuse

Glad to hear it Pete, but they are not fused at all as standard.

 I do fully agree that modern cars are grossly over-complicated for the basic function they perform but that is really another, larger, issue.  It used to be that you bought a car with some electrics attached - now you buy an air-conditioned computer entertainment device that happens to have wheels.....

In fact that is one reason I shall not be buying any new car. I don't want anything that requires me to poke at a screen menu to activate basic functions, and neither do I want one where the steering fights me in pointing it where I want it to go or which slams on the brakes unnecessarily because it misunderstands what I am doing. I also don't want it to be able to have functions altered remotely by the maker without my agreement. 

I guess I'm just a dinosaur

 

 

[Charlie D]

I ended up making something similar to Nigel.

8 fuses arranged so that if one blew it would (mostly) only stop a few things working, and I arranged it so that in most cases (I think) the things not working would not make the car impossible to drive. (Not sure if that makes sense, but I know what I mean).

For example, there is one fuse that supplies power to the ignition switch , but power out of ignition switch has 4 fused circuits that go to individual (or slightly shared) items with their own, lower rated fuse.

I’m sure it’s not perfect, but 2 fuses never seemed right. So many simple things could go wrong and kill 50% of the rest of the car.

The drawing I have is wrapped in a poly bag and stuffed down the side of the battery.

Charlie.

[james christie]

I have no wish to hog this thread but my question is relevant,I think, to the above.

Is this an opportunity to address myself to those bright sparks who might be willing to sketch out an under bonnet electrical plan for me - and probably others hopefully?

It’s a 3A with alternator, negative earth and rack and pinion steering. The side, brake and indicator lights are LED.

Like many,  I still have the simple original fusebox and have hooked up wiring for relays for the horn (rack and pinion steering) , electric fan and have brought the overdrive relay onto the engine side of the firewall - all using 40 amp modern relays Made in India.

Currently these relays are scattered around the engine compartment with the inevitable long wires stretching round from the fuse box. I should like to tidy things up and make it look a bit less of a colourful rat’s nest. Hopefully reduce the quantity of wires too!
Anybody got any suggestions for somebody with a fairly tidy mind but limited electrical ability ?

james

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, RobH said:

Glad to hear it Pete, but they are not fused at all as standard.

sorry Rob but . . .

 

I'm a dinosaur too, but don't tell anyone 

Pete

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Bfg

[RobH]

Those are the instrument illumination and sidelights Pete. I meant the headlights which are those on the bottom left (16 to 20 ). I should have been more specific. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by RobH

[Bfg]

I stand corrected and apologise for my obstinacy Rob ..I hadn't realised the headlamps were and are powered directly from the live un-fused side of the ignition switch.  I will add an in-line fuse between the ignition and high/low beam switch (which on Katie  used to be the overdrive switch).

Very much appreciated,

Pete 

[stillp]

4 hours ago, RobH said:

Glad to hear it Pete, but they are not fused at all as standard.

 I do fully agree that modern cars are grossly over-complicated for the basic function they perform but that is really another, larger, issue.  It used to be that you bought a car with some electrics attached - now you buy an air-conditioned computer entertainment device that happens to have wheels.....

In fact that is one reason I shall not be buying any new car. I don't want anything that requires me to poke at a screen menu to activate basic functions, and neither do I want one where the steering fights me in pointing it where I want it to go or which slams on the brakes unnecessarily because it misunderstands what I am doing. I also don't want it to be able to have functions altered remotely by the maker without my agreement. 

I guess I'm just a dinosaur

 

 

It could be even worse Rob - have you seen the interior of a Tesla? We sat in one at a pop-up display in a shopping centre recently. My wife wanted to look in the glovebox but couldn't find a button to open it. I suggested pushing the lid, but that didn't work. After a few moments a salesman wandered over and asked us if there was a problem. We told him, and with a triumphant smirk on his face he said "Open glovebox" at which it opened. I can see the point of some controls being voice-activated as an alternative to manual control, but to have only voice control of the glovebox lid is ridiculous. Actually there might be a way to open it via the touch screen, but I didn't hang around to find out.

I'm another dinosaur...

Pete

[RobH]

6 minutes ago, stillp said:

with a triumphant smirk on his face he said "Open glovebox" at which it opened

I wonder what it would have done if you had said " Initiate self destruct sequence"....? 

[Bfg]

[stillp]

It would probably reply "That does not compute Will Robinson"!

Pete

[PodOne]

I'm no auto electrician but with some help from fellow formites and especially RobH when confused I took the opportunity to make a new loom using uprated wire with relays where useful, fused every circuit and added a few security extras bits and pieces while keeping the original look and old fuse box which still has the fuses before entering a hidden fuse box. It's based on a range wiring diagrams from various years but generally on what seemed sensible. It's probably totally over engineered as everything light wise is LED  but half the cost of a direct OEM replacement with no modifications/relays.

Enjoyable to do one circuit at a time and best of all surprisingly it all works! 

Just buy a decent crimper and terminals not the nasty cheap blue, yellow and red ones.  

[Charlie D]

1 hour ago, PodOne said:

Just buy a decent crimper and terminals not the nasty cheap blue, yellow and red ones.

Impressive!

I see in most places you have used push on crimp “Boots” AND heat shrink over that, going up the wire a bit.

Plus Dymo labels…

 

Too much?

No.

To me it’s worth the extra effort.

The only problem I’ve found with Dymo labels is that they come unstuck too easily.

Charlie.

[MilesA]

11 hours ago, PodOne said:

I'm no auto electrician but with some help from fellow formites and especially RobH when confused I took the opportunity to make a new loom using uprated wire with relays where useful, fused every circuit and added a few security extras bits and pieces while keeping the original look and old fuse box which still has the fuses before entering a hidden fuse box. It's based on a range wiring diagrams from various years but generally on what seemed sensible. It's probably totally over engineered as everything light wise is LED  but half the cost of a direct OEM replacement with no modifications/relays.

Enjoyable to do one circuit at a time and best of all surprisingly it all works! 

Just buy a decent crimper and terminals not the nasty cheap blue, yellow and red ones.  

Excellent! 

Where did you hide all the new stuff?

Miles

[Lebro]

13 hours ago, RobH said:

I wonder what it would have done if you had said " Initiate self destruct sequence"....? 

Just as long as you don't blurt out (in surprise) "Well bugger me !"  

[RobH]

25 minutes ago, Lebro said:

Just as long as you don't blurt out (in surprise) "Well bugger me !"  

It would just say  this:

 

[PodOne]

11 hours ago, MilesA said:

Where did you hide all the new stuff?

Hi Miles

Don't want to hijack Petes excellent thread here! Sorry Pete.

The drop down board which slides forward for easier access is under the passenger side dash below the wiper motor and the fuses etc high up on the bulkhead wall. I've since made a Ali plate with quick release pins to protect the fuses from folks feet.

Andy

 

[Bfg]

Absolutely No problem Andy. 

I like and so very much welcome different solutions, approaches and the balance of opinion ..as long as things stay reasonably close to topic related - which your post certainly is.

I've always liked the drop-forward minor-instrument-panel of my old Jaguars, which had the fuses neatly laid out across the back of it.  It had the benefit when opened, of being directly under the windscreen which of course benefited from natural light, or street light, to see things more clearly.  Today I guess we'd just add a strip of LED lights to see what we are doing.  Sunbeam motorcycles (see photo below) used a similarly convenient solution to accessing and being able to clearly see their wiring, but still only had one fuse.   In yacht design, of larger vessels, we frequently use pull out or hinge-open (for access to both sides of the board) breaker boards.  Those vessels inevitably had two or three different voltages and charging systems, which we preferred to keep separate.

I think you've come up with similarly practical solution for your TR6.   Whether your car's 17 or 18 fuses and 5 or 6 relays are necessary ? is your choice ..and otherwise for each individual to decide for their own car.  I'm happy to see other's solutions being presented. I have yet to closely examine Charlie's diagram, but will do and I'll consider each as a I decide what might a best-compromise for Katie.   No solution is perfect but some may have useful benefits. 

Odd though it may seem - I was, in retrospect, glad that my Tom-Tom gave me an audio-visual warning that something was amiss with its power supply. This was within perhaps half-a-mile of when the brake-light fault happen. as a consequence I wasn't driving around oblivious to the brake lights not working, for very long at all. 

Importantly - the vehicle wasn't debilitated by it, as only auxiliary circuits were effected, nor was I compromised by limp-mode on a busy motorway. An experience I've had twice and did not enjoy. 

Thanks to Rob and others for their sensible council and good-natured forum conversation, I've learnt a few things . . .

• I don't want a voice activated or any other diagnostic computer telling me, or the car, what to do
• my car's headlamp wiring and its switches are not fuse protected. That to me is unacceptable. 
• I also think it would be prudent to have the brake lights and indicators / hazard warning lights on different fuses.  As the indicators have their own tell-tale then it seems logical to leave the brake lights on the same fuse as the instruments, so those not working would alert me to the likelihood of brake light failure. The Indicators / hazards can have their own fuse.
• Thanks to Rob I've also come to realise that because the headlamps are not on the same fuse as the side lights  ..which is a good thing, as I would not want to loose all the lights at once,  that fuse (presently 35A) is way too high for this car's side lights, which are now all LED. 
• Having the screen wash, wipers, heater blower and cigarette lighter (aux power to Tom-Tom and phone charging) all on the same fuse as 'safety items' ..like brake-lights and hazard warning light, also doesn't make good sense to me.  I think it would be worthwhile to fit another two fuses for those four circuits.  probably screen wash and heater blower on one, and wipers and auxiliary chargers on the other ..as I don't like not knowing when these a problem with the wipers.

So, I must admit that I've moved to think that perhaps six to eight fuses might be wiser.  Katie  already has three and so a block of just four more would not be difficult to fit in.

Thanks to all,

Pete

 

^ 1940 - 50's Sunbeam motorcycles had an electrical box, situated in the relative dry space under its saddle, which housed the voltage-regulator and coil. Fitted through the hinged lid of the box was the ammeter and the ignition / light switch. There were also two spare-bulb holders. A similar electrical box on the other side of the bike houses the battery and the wiring loom's single fuse.  Neat, simply and yet effective.

 

 

[Nigel C]

good point raised about having brake lights and Hazards on the same fuse, I will address this soon!

 

[Bfg]

On another note ... Overdrive not working.

Professionally rebuilt just last year / 2000 miles ago, I don't know what's wrong.  It was working fine until last weekend when I had the fuse blow due to a fault in the brake light circuit. Since then, although the solenoid clicks and seemingly operates fine, I have no over-drive in any gear.

Following previous advice to other owners having the same or similar issues - I've checked the gearbox oil level, and it took a topping up of between 30 and 40ml. The oil is Dynolite Gear 40  non-hypoid & non-friction modified gear oil.

I've also check the solenoid's operation (audio and then visually only. I have not made any adjustment to it).  It seemed to be working fine.  and while driving I can just about hear it disengaging and reengaging as I change gear.

^ peekabo for overdrive perverts

  

  ^ off  and..   activated ^^

Note.  I can hear this, and could see it from underneath the car,  but I've lifted the rear half of my gearbox cover off,  because i wanted to visually check what-was-what under there now, and to access the operating valve.    

  

^ Following the suggestions in the workshop manual - I've  removed the valve operating cover (the top of which is painted red, centre of this photo), pulled and checked the spring, it plunger and ball.   As expected of it having been professional restored, the ball's condition looks brand new.  The spring wasn't broken, nor did it appear to be unduly weak. 

With the ignition on, but the car not started ; I engaged a higher gear and clicked on the overdrive switch. The ball lifted (against a 1/4"-drive-socket screwdriver) as prescribed.  I haven't measured it but it seemed more like 1/16" to me rather than the 1/32" specified in the book.  

Is too much travel an issue ?  or perhaps the solenoid's lever arm needs to taken down a bit ??

 

 

^ To test the operation of the pump, which is inside the overdrive unit  ..with the rear wheels of the car lifted  (timber blocks under the trailing arms) and the front wheels chocked,  I started the engine and engaged 4th gear at engine tick-over speeds.  When the overdrive switch was operated..  oil very quickly welled up to fill and overflow the valve cover flange.  According to the book, only if this doesn't happen the pump is at fault.

However, I did note a ring of small air bubbles inside the hole's oil. Perhaps there was air in the pump and/or the valve that has stopped the overdrive unit from working ??

That's as far as I've got.  I have not subsequently driven the car to see if the overdrive is now working or not ..but aside from letting those air bubbles out, I can't see that I've actually done anything.  The car is still up on the blocks with the rear wheels lifted 1/2" off the ground.  

And I'm very much open to advice as to what to check next.

Thanks, Pete

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Bfg

[Bfg]

Just now, Nigel C said:

good point raised about having brake lights and Hazards on the same fuse, I will address this soon!

 

at least the rear side lights are on another fuse so there oughtn't be a totally black-out.

[stuart]

Unfortunately your split cover doesnt give you access to the setting lever on the right side of the box, you could try just pushing the lever slightly further forward whilst solenoid engaged and running in 4th, Ive had this problem when changing solenoids and forgetting to fit the gasket that was under the solenoid when the box was first set up, just that little difference was enough to stop it engaging properly.

Stuart.

[Bfg]

Thanks Stuart,  

Might this happen after a couple of thousand miles ? or would the gearbox oil level being that bit low, possibly be a factor ?  

Yes, I can see the lever on the RHS.  It's retaining dowel-pin can be seen in the photo showing the operating valve cover.  The lever is inclined to about 45 degrees, and I can easily reach it with my finger to push its forward-end forward and down.  Statically it seems to move just 1/8".  Does it need to go further than that ? 

As there appears to not be an electrical problem with the solenoid, would you think it reasonable to presume that the brake's electrical fault / fuse blowing and the overdrive not working is just a coincidence ?   Or would an electrical power cut, while it was engaged, contribute to the problem ? 

As always, we all very much appreciate your prompt advice,

Pete

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

On 4/13/2023 at 3:46 PM, james christie said:

I have no wish to hog this thread but my question is relevant,I think, to the above.

Is this an opportunity to address myself to those bright sparks who might be willing to sketch out an under bonnet electrical plan for me - and probably others hopefully?

It’s a 3A with alternator, negative earth and rack and pinion steering. The side, brake and indicator lights are LED.

Like many,  I still have the simple original fusebox and have hooked up wiring for relays for the horn (rack and pinion steering) , electric fan and have brought the overdrive relay onto the engine side of the firewall - all using 40 amp modern relays Made in India.

Currently these relays are scattered around the engine compartment with the inevitable long wires stretching round from the fuse box. I should like to tidy things up and make it look a bit less of a colourful rat’s nest. Hopefully reduce the quantity of wires too!
Anybody got any suggestions for somebody with a fairly tidy mind but limited electrical ability ?

james

DKU does a nice item that fits where the other side pedal box would be.   Brother has fitted this to his TR2 and it tidies things nicely

 

https://www.racetorations.co.uk/product/hidden-fuse-relay-box-tr2-3a/

or

https://www.racetorations.co.uk/product/hidden-fuse-relay-box-pre-cut-tr2-3a/

plus

https://www.racetorations.co.uk/product/fuse-relay-set-racetorations-hidden-fuse-box-tr2-3a/

Edited April 16, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[stuart]

15 hours ago, Bfg said:

Thanks Stuart,  

Might this happen after a couple of thousand miles ? or would the gearbox oil level being that bit low, possibly be a factor ?  

Yes, I can see the lever on the RHS.  It's retaining dowel-pin can be seen in the photo showing the operating valve cover.  The lever is inclined to about 45 degrees, and I can easily reach it with my finger to push its forward-end forward and down.  Statically it seems to move just 1/8".  Does it need to go further than that ? 

As there appears to not be an electrical problem with the solenoid, would you think it reasonable to presume that the brake's electrical fault / fuse blowing and the overdrive not working is just a coincidence ?   Or would an electrical power cut, while it was engaged, contribute to the problem ? 

As always, we all very much appreciate your prompt advice,

Pete

 

Just try when your driving with the cover off and overdrive engaged to just push that lever slightly forwards and see if the overdrive does engage. Obviously oil levels do affect overdrive operation but it wasnt down that far was it?

Stuart.