Brake Upgrades

[Phil H 4]

 

Having met a white van man on the wrong side of a country lane recently ( him ..not me ) I'm considering upgrading the brakes on my 72 TR6. The standard set up works reasonably well but it would be good if the stopping distance could be safely reduced when situations like this arise.

Having read numerous threads ( some quite old) I wondered if there is currently  any consensus regarding this. Primarily I'm looking at the front and see complete kits vented discs , 4 piston calipers are available but at quite a price. There are also lots of references to Toyota early pick up calipers.Rear disc conversion looks very complicated but there are references to brake cylinders with larger bores from Morgan and Sunbeam Tiger. I understand pad are quite a consideration and Mintex 1144 and Ferodo FD S167 seem to crop up.

So what upgrades are worthwhile and how complicated are they.

Thanks  Phil

[RobH]

Non of those mods will shorten the stopping distance Phil -  at best they will only help to lock the wheels with less pedal effort.  The standard set-up will do that easily anyway if it is in good nick. 

To do what you want either needs antilock brakes or for you to learn cadence braking. 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by RobH

[Motorsport Mickey]

You can lock up the tyres with the standard systems, if you can't then there's something wrong with your set up.

If you can convince me that the standard system which is specified as mandatory when racing (in class, and is often used without a servo even) is not satisfactory to stop your car when driving on public roads, then you are driving too fast....Or am I confused. 

Sure fit what you want, but once you can lock the tyres (and you can with standard setup) then it means you need stickier/wider tyres.

Mick Richards 

[Drewmotty]

M1144 pads is the only upgrade you need. 

[RogerH]

As mentioned above I can lock my TR4A wheels on a dry road. 

However the biggest problem is when the road is slightly damp towards wet. 

The tyres  are always in good condition - Vredstein sprint etc - and work well.

Usually on country lanes it is the gravel in road side/gutter.

The sound of scrunching gravel makes the other driver look up.

 

Roger

[Hamish]

Phil 

I am afraid I am with the others. A good well functioning standard set up should do you fine. 
as other have said if you can lock up the front tyres evenly it’s working. You may even lock up the rears a bit earlier too as the weight transfers to the front. 
I have a TR3a with standard brakes and can reduce speeds from 100 mph in a short distance in competition with a completely cold set up. 
 

good tyres come into play as well - old hard tyres will lock up far too early in an emergency braking phase.
 

I would check your pads as some can be very hard and feel wooden. 
 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Hamish

[jerrytr5]

Most brake upgrades are all about getting rid of excess heat in order to maintain an efficient brake. Changing the pads could result in a longer stopping distance in the situation you describe. An 'upgraded' pad frequently works best at a higher temperature range and therefore will do very little until warmed up.

I have noted that the efficiency of disc seems to vary with different suppliers, no doubt there is a metallurgist on here who can tell us why. I've found that Revington supply ones that work well for me.

Jerry

[Richard71]

Hi Phil,

I have Wilwood calipers on all 4 corners of my car with Mintex pads, I don't race or rally and I can concur with previous posters.........I can't feel any improvement in braking performance. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the standard set-up (with Mintex 1144 pads). 

|Richard.

[Waldi]

Hi Phil,

after a complete resto I wasn’t too happy with my TR6 (PI) brakes.

Yes, I could get them to block, but only at quite some effort.

My legs are not the strongest, and I think the lower vacuum of a PI plays a role too (compared to mildly tuned carburettor engines).

I fitted the Volvo brake servo, which has improved braking a lot for me. 

Waldi

[Hamish]

1 hour ago, jerrytr5 said:

Most brake upgrades are all about getting rid of excess heat in order to maintain an efficient brake. Changing the pads could result in a longer stopping distance in the situation you describe. An 'upgraded' pad frequently works best at a higher temperature range and therefore will do very little until warmed up.

I have noted that the efficiency of disc seems to vary with different suppliers, no doubt there is a metallurgist on here who can tell us why. I've found that Revington supply ones that work well for me.

Jerry

Depends which “upgrade” you want. 
Upgraded race type pads will need warming up but won’t fade with continuous use.

the beauty of the 1144’s upgrade is they work very well from cold thus great for the road.

 

[DIYBOSSCAT]

+2 for Mintex 1144 pads.

 

Vince.

[Mike C]

Don't know if a competition level braking system will help with the occasional violent emergency stop ,especially on a gravel road.

Good tyres will help a bit  and an ABS braking system will help a lot. Old fashioned cadence braking may help but you will need to mentally prepare for it and have super fast reflexes.

[Phil H 4]

Thanks all for your most informative responses.

My search was "to reduce the stopping distance, safely " I am fimilar with Cadence braking or as my dad used to say Graham Hill breaking ( Not sure why ) however i'm not sure if my reaction would be such in a near miss situation to implement. Good to know at least that spending money on "upgrades" is not necessarily the answer. Tyres are 2 year old Vredstein and can lock 4 wheels, even when i'm not driving too fast ! but looking for more progressive bite so I'll start with the pads.

Waldi, I have recently refurbished the servo but will look into the Volo unit you mention.

Thanks again.

 

[Rob Y]

3 hours ago, Waldi said:

Hi Phil,

after a complete resto I wasn’t too happy with my TR6 (PI) brakes.

Yes, I could get them to block, but only at quite some effort.

My legs are not the strongest, and I think the lower vacuum of a PI plays a role too (compared to mildly tuned carburettor engines).

I fitted the Volvo brake servo, which has improved braking a lot for me. 

Waldi

+1, the best upgrade I’ve done on my car.

Check out the Volvo servo upgrade post which gives you all the details.

Rob Y

[JochemsTR]

This is the kit I sold in germany/austria.

I installed a normal disc and a vented disc parallel on my car. a 50% temperature reduction.

This is for me the most significant front brake upgrade you can do. 4 piston calipers etc. won't help you and not necessary. The TR brakes are easy upto 200 HP.

 

[Z320]

Hi,

in my opinion the TR handbrake is a product of bad circumstances

and a persistant ignoring of well known, older and better constructions by the TR engineers.

But the swap to a improved or better construction will not brake the car better by the foot brake.

Ciao, Marco

Edited December 16, 2022 by Z320

[Andy Moltu]

9 hours ago, JochemsTR said:

This is the kit I sold in germany/austria.

I installed a normal disc and a vented disc parallel on my car. a 50% temperature reduction.

This is for me the most significant front brake upgrade you can do. 4 piston calipers etc. won't help you and not necessary. The TR brakes are easy upto 200 HP.

 

Which disc did you use?

I have one of the older vented disc conversions. These use spacers in the standard calipers and work well with Mintex 1144 pads. 

Want to do the same with the 4A, however the kits haven’t been sold for years. The calipers spacers are not a problem as they are sold for contemporary fast Fords. The alternative disc is an issue. Pretty sure ECB supplied them originally but when I spoke to them they denied they were the suppliers (in spite of coming in an ECB box with a set of their crappy pads) None of the TR suppliers recalled where the kits were from.

Did you use an off the shelf disc or did you modify one. I so which car was it originally fitted to?

 

[RogerH]

Hi Andy,

ECB  DID produce a vented disc kit not only with dodgy Greenstuff pads but chewing gum bolts.

I bought a kit when they first came out from the TRShop. A couple of years later I got a replacement set of discs from the TRShop.

The kit is reasonable but the discs rub on one of the piston dirt seals.

Not sure what I'll do in a year or so;s time when I need new discs

 

Roger

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by RogerH

[Charlie D]

19 hours ago, Mike C said:

...Old fashioned cadence braking may help but you will need to mentally prepare for it and have super fast reflexes...

Many years ago a friend of mine was driving me down to London in his MGB via the M1. He was explaining to me what cadence braking was all about. To demonstrate this he left the motorway at the next junction and headed to the roundabout at the top, only braking in a cadence manner as we reached the give way line.

We sailed straight past the white line and into the back wheel of a lorry.

He never ever mentioned (or practiced) cadence breaking again.

Charlie.

[Tim D.]

With most people on here. Can lock all 4 wheels using the standard system (runing mintex for fade resistance). If you want to stop quicker fit better tyres. Wider or stickier.. key is to improve the weak link which in this case is tyres. 

Tim

[PodOne]

I've yet to use my car but in an effort to incorporate proven mods I fancy installing some Mintex pads.

After googlizing there seems some variation in price. These seem the cheapest https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165407748331?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=ms7xfrJDQZS&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=AW518UzHQgm&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY are they the correct pads?

If not who sells the correct pads?

Thanks

Andy

[Andy Moltu]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:44 PM, RogerH said:

Hi Andy,

ECB  DID produce a vented disc kit not only with dodgy Greenstuff pads but chewing gum bolts.

I bought a kit when they first came out from the TRShop. A couple of years later I got a replacement set of discs from the TRShop.

The kit is reasonable but the discs rub on one of the piston dirt seals.

Not sure what I'll do in a year or so;s time when I need new discs

 

Roger

 

I spoke to ECB and got through to a numpty who denied they were the suppliers!

As for the caliper spacers and bolts, the ECB supplied spacer was marginal. I replaced those (and the bolts) with a set from eBay that were supplied by Big Red. 

Like you I am yet to find a suitable donor disc that can be re-drilled or machined down.

[JochemsTR]

2 hours ago, Andy Moltu said:

Like you I am yet to find a suitable donor disc that can be re-drilled or machined down.

The ECB discs were 20 mm wide. 
A replacement is unlikely. My discs are 24 mm which require new log spacing, os diameter and is diameter mod. 

[jr2]

21 hours ago, JochemsTR said:

The ECB discs were 20 mm wide

This brake rotor may be a suitable replacement for the EBC.  I have the caliper spacers and these 22 MM rotors ready for fitment, but my car is in storage.

[RogerH]

Hi,

From where are they obtained?

 

Roger