LED

[Wayne Scott]

I have been notified about this thread following on from my article in TR Action and asked if I would comment. There isn't anything more to say on the matter other than what I have already outlined in the conclusions of the research in TR Action Magazine carried out by both myself and Rob Marshall.

 

All the misquoted and misinterpreted legislation that the article addressed has simply been reposted here again, the answers to the questions they raise are all in the article for those who read it. As the article says, the FBHVC have been silent, instead copying a members letter from the MG Magazine Safety Fast which is incorrect in its intepretation of the law. The FBHVC are a lobbying organisation they do not make, enforce nor interpret the law.

 

The content of the article is the result of many months of research. The quotes and conclusions are the clarification received from legal experts who are named in that article.

 

It does not surprise me that some MOT stations and garages are unfamiliar with this issue as it is not widely publicised outside of the classic car scene, despite trading standards taking action on a number of large retailers in the aftermarket parts market.

 

Aftermarket LED bulbs (that are not supplied within a complete purpose designed and type approved light unit with housing, connections and lenses) are illegal for use on the public road. The law, when you look into it is actually pretty clear.

 

That said, as far as I see it, my job is done in giving club members the facts so they may make informed decisions for themselves - its the same as driving at 80mph on the motorway - we know its against the law but some choose to take the risk, telling themselves that its perfectly safe and probably will never get caught.

 

The club, the office etc won't be anymore proactive on the matter than that I expect, as long as we (as an organisation) are in no way recommending LED bulbs or making out they are at all legal in any way through the magazine, website or forum.

P.S - There is however a gap in the market identified here for a complete type approved replacement LED light unit inc. lenses and fittings to be produced for TRs... any wealthy investors reading??

[stuart]

Presumably then there will be no more adverts for them or articles talking about them in the magazine then Wayne?

Stuart.

[Paul Down]

Neil,

 

I apologise for my comments re your post.

 

After reading WS's statement it would appear that you are indeed correct

 

Although I frequently do not grasp the full meaning of some of your cryptic posts (thus my reference to a decoder) I do however appreciate that you are very experienced and have a wide knowledge of TRs. and have helped many others on here with all kinds of technical problems.

 

I do hope you will continue to do so!

 

Sorry if I upset you.

 

Paul

[monty]

Presumably then there will be no more adverts for them or articles talking about them in the magazine then Wayne?

Stuart.

Hear hear Stuart. I am particularly miffed that I spent money on these things after reading all the stuff in the magazine!

[TorontoTim]

Wayne,

 

Thanks are due to both you and Rob for doing this work and finding out the definitive answer. I presume that you are referring ONLY to UK law (I haven't read the article, I'm afraid)? Obviously, I don't expect you to have any idea about Canada (!) but for our European friends, can you clarify 100% whether this research applies to them or not?

 

Cheers!

 

Tim

[Charlie D]

Alec Pringle said:

“…those responsible for drafting regulations tend to be as precise as they can manage in their use of language…”

A good example of this is in the lighting regulations referring to the use of Blue warning beacons.

 

===================

“ No vehicle, other than an emergency vehicle, shall be fitted with–

(a)a blue warning beacon or special warning lamp, or

(b)a device which resembles a blue warning beacon or a special warning lamp, whether the same is in working order or not.”

 

===================

I do wonder how many people and how many hours it took to come up with those two sentances.



If anyone wants some bedtime reading, The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 can be found here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/contents/made


Charlie.

[ChrisR-4A]

There is an unquestionable difference between something which may be advertised on EBay or elsewhere and something promoted within a Club Magazine for which we all subscribe £44 or more for the privilege of receiving. I think the least a member can expect is that the Club will not promote or condone actions which may put one in a vulnerable position.

Advertising is advertising and in the same TRAction are promotions from TR Register Insursnce, BetterCarLighting and the Editorial article by Wayne Scott.

Clarification is required urgently from TR Register insurance on this matter.

Personally having followed other standard TRs on misty and rainy days and watched them disappear from view after only a few hundred yards whilst lights on modern cars were visible at twice the distance I am more than happily with the LED stop and tail lights on my 4A supplied by BetterCarLighting which are the later type with red leds giving more red light and less glare.

Chris

[Guest ntc]

Neil,

 

I apologise for my comments re your post.

 

After reading WS's statement it would appear that you are indeed correct

 

Although I frequently do not grasp the full meaning of some of your cryptic posts (thus my reference to a decoder) I do however appreciate that you are very experienced and have a wide knowledge of TRs. and have helped many others on here with all kinds of technical problems.

 

I do hope you will continue to do so!

 

Sorry if I upset you.

 

Paul

Paul

No problem,It was me bit of a short fuse just now ,enjoy your Tr

[Ben Freer]

There is a saying " The law is an ass". The chances that these regulations were created as a direct result of a couple of hundred TRs with bright stop/tail lamps is unlikely. Much more likely to be because of poorly designed/adjusted LED headlamp conversions on Boy Racer Euroboxes I'd suggest........

 

I have LED stop/tail lamps installed. They have been commented on positively on the RBRR16 by following drivers who had also followed originally lit side-screens. I was reassured by this - having checked that they were not dazzling - that I could be seen. I'm in a slight quandary now; being a law abiding sort, but on balance I think I will stick with them on the basis that I'd rather take the risk of a fine than be squished flat. My headlamps & indicators are fine as they are and will remain incandescent.

 

I will reconsider if my insurance is confirmed as invalid if they are installed.

 

As for adverts in the latest TR Action I'm sure that these were in place and paid for prior to the article by Wayne. However, I would be surprised/disappointed if they continued to appear in subsequent issues.

 

Expecting to be recompensed because you bought them in good faith based on comments on here or in TR Action or any other publication? Well good luck is all I can say! I won't be holding my breath! (nor seeking recompense!)

[Tom Boyd]

It's best to refrain from commenting on my thoughts and indeed my MOT mans thoughts regarding this...... Needless to say I have never been produced with a failure due to nice bright lamps ????????

[harlequin]

I am with Chris on this.

Given the choice between having a bloody great artic running into the back of the car on a rainy motorway and the extremely remote possibly of being stopped for having the wrong bulbs I will continue to use good quality fit for purpose LED's

 

George

[mike3md]

+1

[Lebro]

There is a saying " The law is an ass". The chances that these regulations were created as a direct result of a couple of hundred TRs with bright stop/tail lamps is unlikely. Much more likely to be because of poorly designed/adjusted LED headlamp conversions on Boy Racer Euroboxes I'd suggest........

 

I have LED stop/tail lamps installed. They have been commented on positively on the RBRR16 by following drivers who had also followed originally lit side-screens. I was reassured by this - having checked that they were not dazzling - that I could be seen. I'm in a slight quandary now; being a law abiding sort, but on balance I think I will stick with them on the basis that I'd rather take the risk of a fine than be squished flat. My headlamps & indicators are fine as they are and will remain incandescent.

 

I will reconsider if my insurance is confirmed as invalid if they are installed.

 

As for adverts in the latest TR Action I'm sure that these were in place and paid for prior to the article by Wayne. However, I would be surprised/disappointed if they continued to appear in subsequent issues.

 

Expecting to be recompensed because you bought them in good faith based on comments on here or in TR Action or any other publication? Well good luck is all I can say! I won't be holding my breath! (nor seeking recompense!)

 

Agree Ben.

The LED headlight conversions are not suitable for our use as most, if not all of them, have no properly defined dipped beam cutoff, & as such would be potentially dazzeling to other car drivers. Properly designed tail / stop / number plate / indicator replacement bulbs can only improve the safety for classic car drivers & other road users.

I will continue to use mine, but would not ever be considering going the LED headlamp route, & I will continue to offer my sidescreen rear bulbs to those who would like them.

 

Bob.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

 

Agree Ben.

The LED headlight conversions are not suitable for our use as most, if not all of them, have no properly defined dipped beam cutoff, & as such would be potentially dazzeling to other car drivers. Properly designed tail / stop / number plate / indicator replacement bulbs can only improve the safety for classic car drivers & other road users.

I will continue to use mine, but would not ever be considering going the LED headlamp route, & I will continue to offer my sidescreen rear bulbs to those who would like them.

 

Bob.

I have a pair of these.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-LED-Headlight-7-DRL-Headlamp-x-2-Lamps-Lights-E-Approved-/162467063889?hash=item25d3caa851:g:js4AAOSwUgNXPJnd

 

The dip beam flat top cut off is very sharp and defined.

 

Peter W

[Lebro]

I have a pair of these.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-LED-Headlight-7-DRL-Headlamp-x-2-Lamps-Lights-E-Approved-/162467063889?hash=item25d3caa851:g:js4AAOSwUgNXPJnd

 

The dip beam flat top cut off is very sharp and defined.

 

Peter W

 

Peter.

Indeed, but they are complete lamps, not replacement bulbs. Would be interested to see what they are like, & how they compare with Valero units + Nightbreaker Halogens.

 

Cheers

Bob.

[monty]

Due to experiences with insurances companies in the past couple of years along with their history of trying to not pay claims I have reverted back to standard bulbs, which to be honest are not really that bad compared to the led's.

[Bill Bourne]

I am with Chris on this.

Given the choice between having a bloody great artic running into the back of the car on a rainy motorway and the extremely remote possibly of being stopped for having the wrong bulbs I will continue to use good quality fit for purpose LED's

 

George

+1

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

 

Peter.

Indeed, but they are complete lamps, not replacement bulbs. Would be interested to see what they are like, & how they compare with Valero units + Nightbreaker Halogens.

 

Cheers

Bob.

The car is currently fitted with Cibie Z beam headlamps that look identical to the current Valeo type units, they are fitted with with regular H4 bulbs. I can whip one H4 lamp out and nip in the LED thing. When the car is back & working I will then be able to do a side by side test and let you know.

Cheers

Peter W

 

PS Looking at the newsletter and the forum I have an urge to request help with 'LED conversion braided PI hoses'.....

Edited April 20, 2017 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Pete,

 

sounds like you need the latest offering from Miss Europe . . . . . the Bytechaboom.

 

This handy little gadget consists of a now-redundant LED lamp mounted on a reassuringly long length of articulated and also now-redundant braided PI hose, and incorporates a special bore-o-scope camera. The bore-o-scope enables more than just navel gazing for the seriously overweight, indeed an in-depth self examination of the fundamental orifice is now possible . . . . . this maximises opportunities for the amateur scoper to qualify for entry to the Great Bore of the Year contest.

 

Future developments are likely to include both honing and reaming attachments, for the benefit of those enthusiasts no longer able to indulge their masochistic tendencies by actually crawling under or inside their chariots of Triumph. A pressure washer is also under development for the benefit of those with short arms and/or arthritic elbows . . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Lebro]

Thanks Alec.

Sound advice as usual.

 

Bob.

 

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Alec, thank you, I am going to hold off and wait for the Revington upgrade kit including dust cover and a plinth to keep it all on.

 

Peter W

[TR 2100]

Hi Pete,

 

sounds like you need the latest offering from Miss Europe . . . . . the Bytechaboom.

 

This handy little gadget consists of a now-redundant LED lamp mounted on a reassuringly long length of articulated and also now-redundant braided PI hose, and incorporates a special bore-o-scope camera. The bore-o-scope enables more than just navel gazing for the seriously overweight, indeed an in-depth self examination of the fundamental orifice is now possible . . . . . this maximises opportunities for the amateur scoper to qualify for entry to the Great Bore of the Year contest.

 

Future developments are likely to include both honing and reaming attachments, for the benefit of those enthusiasts no longer able to indulge their masochistic tendencies by actually crawling under or inside their chariots of Triumph. A pressure washer is also under development for the benefit of those with short arms and/or arthritic elbows . . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

 

Was going to add a line of smileys - but -

 

I do not like smileys - but I DO like Alec's post!

 

AlanR

[DRD]

I am with Chris on this.

Given the choice between having a bloody great artic running into the back of the car on a rainy motorway and the extremely remote possibly of being stopped for having the wrong bulbs I will continue to use good quality fit for purpose LED's

 

George

 

+1

[astontr6]

I think that Paul's thread would have to be tested in court if there are anomalies which have duel or unclear meanings? But it seems surprising that AR Action prints this acritical and then allows a company to advertise LED bulbs as the current situation is not clear cut! I agree with the point that the TR Insurance should be asked for their opinion.

Does this also make my headlights illegal as I have had halogen bulbs for the last 30 + years, instead of sealed beam units, which were the original units? This is where the Register s/b dealing directly with FBHVC to canvass HMG to sort this out, we have left the EU I think????????

 

Bruce.

[astontr6]

Presumably then there will be no more adverts for them or articles talking about them in the magazine then Wayne?

Stuart.

Well said !!!!!!!!!-------- It also looks like a TRR COP OUT by Wayne &Co??? This is when people ask why do they pay their subs?

 

Bruce.