james christie Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 I fail to understand that kind of commercial policy. The customer base is very specific - it’s the one that wants Zddp! It seems strange to withhold what the customer is looking for!! james Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 Puzzled me. I contacted several oil manufacturers when I wrote a article on ZDDP levels in the different 20/50s marketed for classic for the Leicestershire newsletter (TRipe). They (Morris)were the only one of many to decline to divulge the ZDDP levels. Got a message back saying it wasn't just about ZDDP levels and how detrimental to catalytic converters it was. Missing the point that at the time there were very few classics fitted with cats and camshaft longevity was more relevant. Snotty tone to the email so I no longer buy my mower, chainsaw oil and other oils from them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ralph Whitaker Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 3 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said: The reason I use the 'cat-safe' criterion for ZDDP content is because there are two ways of stating ZDDP content that superficially look the same but actually are very different. "ZDDP ppm" is a lot lower ( maybe 10-fold) than "Zn ppm as ZDDP". So look for "Zn ppm" 1000-1500 region, as Mick says above. "!500 ppm ZDDP" is not enough. Peter Now I`m confused (again) Are you saying that the Westway oil with 1500 ppm of ZDDP is not enough! Can you point to an oil that has Zn ppm stated please. Ralph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ralph Whitaker Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 4 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said: I think maybe owners need to be careful. Westway market at least 2 oils at 20-50 (maybe more) and there's only 1 that I can find that says it has a high Zinc content (1500 Zinc by content ZDDP), Bobs using it. Indeed there is a statement on some 20-50 containers offered that it CAN be used on engines with a catalyst. As Peter states in an earlier post, a template used is if you can use it on a catalyst engine it's likely NOT got a high Zinc ZDDP content, which means I won't use it on my engines. Mick Richards Both the Semi Synthetic and the Mineral 20/50 state 1500ppm ZDDP, both are the same price so which would be the better choice do you think? Ralph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 17 hours ago, AndyR100 said: I currently use (and have done for a while since VR1 prices escalated rapidly) Classic Oils Heritage mineral 20/50, still very competitively priced and the Zn as ZDDP stated correctly, but there is a shipping charge if spending less than £75 now (buying a 20l drum is even better value and free shipping) …… Andy That is what I use now that Millers 20/50 has got expensive. Usually I collect it from the Classic Oils stand @ Kop Hill. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ralph Whitaker said: Both the Semi Synthetic and the Mineral 20/50 state 1500ppm ZDDP, both are the same price so which would be the better choice do you think? Ralph Ralph, The correct way of expressing the ZDDP content since way back is to measure the Zinc content of the ZDDP, in ppm. BUT over the past maybe 15 years some classic oil manufacturers/suppliers have used "ppm ZDDP". SInce the mass of zinc in the ZDDP molecule is only around 10% , the difference is large. These "1500 ppm ZDDP" oils have much less ZDDP than "1500 ppm zinc", allowing them to be used in classics with cats (ZDDP poisons cat convertors). Here's my post from 2017 when I first spotted the mislabelling trick: Nov 11 th https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/64116-duckhams ZDDP is an antiscuff additive that forms a thin glassy coating on rubbing surfaces such as cam followers, rocker/valve and piston rings. It has no effect on oil pressure, nor will the glassy film fail promptly if a low ZDDP oil is used by mistake. Deposition of that glassy film depends upon temperature and local pressure/friction, so diesel engine oils are formlated with a different ZDDP molecule than petrol engines and have high levels, and are a useful if not ideal alternative. Peter Edited April 1 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trchris Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 Just checked my 20lts of westway 20/50 mineral oil it states 1500ppm Zinc 1450ppm Phosphorus and 2900ppm Sulphur if this helps anyone perfectly ok for me Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 3 minutes ago, trchris said: Just checked my 20lts of westway 20/50 mineral oil it states 1500ppm Zinc 1450ppm Phosphorus and 2900ppm Sulphur if this helps anyone perfectly ok for me Chris Looks good to me. The similarity between the Zn and P figures suggests they are both in the ZDDP and not some other source of Zn. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harlequin Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 On 3/31/2024 at 11:40 AM, Lebro said: LOts of options for our cars, most 20W50's are fine as long as they have the required amount of ZDDP in them. Personally I have been using this for a while now: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112846111470 Bob I have just ordered a 20 litre drum direct from Westway, good value at £76 including delivery George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 3 minutes ago, harlequin said: I have just ordered a 20 litre drum direct from Westway, good value at £76 including delivery George The blurb about Zn and P does point to a very good level of ZDDP. BUT the label on the container says "1500 ppm ZDDP: https://prnt.sc/nPUu7fG0cNVd I think Westway are confusing themsleves, and us !! Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 Indeed ! I may do the same when I next need some. Bob. P.S. Just ordered 20L as the price is bound to go up ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james christie Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Lebro said: Just ordered 20L as the price is bound to go up I’m trying hard to enthuse folks around here to collectivelybuy a drum of 60litres. Makes a helluva difference in the price per litre. Of course nobody can agree on the brand to buy, so I’ve got nowhere. Too bad, I’ve just done my annual oil change james Edited April 1 by james christie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PodOne Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 Before I do the same as others and order 20L from Westway on the basis of one oil change/year is there a shelf life? Will it maintain its properties over 3-4 years so I'm not throwing it away. Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 https://www.vehiclescene.com/does-motor-oil-expire/ https://mechanictimes.com/engine-oil-expiry/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PodOne Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 1 hour ago, RobH said: https://www.vehiclescene.com/does-motor-oil-expire/ https://mechanictimes.com/engine-oil-expiry/ Thanks Rob interesting read, 20L it is then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harlequin Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 2 hours ago, PodOne said: Before I do the same as others and order 20L from Westway on the basis of one oil change/year is there a shelf life? Will it maintain its properties over 3-4 years so I'm not throwing it away. Andy They also supply oil in 5 litre cans. I normally use Penrite from our local TR specialist but that has just gone past £40 for 5 litres, and having 2 cars due an oil change I would have to buy 3 cans for £120 so I'm very pleased with the Westway deal. And ofcourse as both cars are TRs so any extra oil will come in handy. George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted April 1 Report Share Posted April 1 (edited) Here’s the Motul data sheet for reference. ZDDP is above 1800ppm…..so what does that mean?https://azupim01.motul.com/media/motulData/DO/base/classic_performance_20w-50_en_fr_motul_20210222.pdf Edited April 1 by iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted April 2 Report Share Posted April 2 11 hours ago, iain said: Here’s the Motul data sheet for reference. ZDDP is above 1800ppm…..so what does that mean?https://azupim01.motul.com/media/motulData/DO/base/classic_performance_20w-50_en_fr_motul_20210222.pdf ""of high-Zinc (ZDDP content above1800 ppm)"" That is confusing. IF the ZDDP content really is 1800 ppm then Zn content would be around 250ppm- which is not 'high zinc'. IF the Zn content is 1800 ppm then the ZDDP will be about 7 times that ( because Zn is about one-seventh of the weight of the molecule). I suspect the scribes that write this stuff dont understand the chemistry. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted April 2 Report Share Posted April 2 (edited) Peter, I thought that the Zinc was just a convenient atom and ion to balance the phosphate, which was what the oil - and the surfaces it protects - needs? Shouldn't we discuss phosphate content, rather than zinc? John Edited April 2 by john.r.davies Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted April 2 Report Share Posted April 2 5 hours ago, john.r.davies said: Peter, I thought that the Zinc was just a convenient atom and ion to balance the phosphate, which was what the oil - and the surfaces it protects - needs? Shouldn't we discuss phosphate content, rather than zinc? John John, AFAIK the ZDDP molecules remain intact but polymerise under heat and pressure to form a glass-like film on rubbing surfaces. The dithiophosphate moiety can be of several lengths allowing it to be tuned to different tmep/pressure applications. As there is one Zinc atom per ZDDP the ration of Zn to P will indeed vary with the oil type. A good level of sulphur ( in the 'dithio-' moiety) is another measure to look for, but it is not usually specified. Unoftunately the labelling by suppliers leaves us uncertain what they mean - as in the Iain's Motul oil above. The oil techies will know but they wont write the labels. My view is still to avoid classic oils that are safe to use with a catalytic convertor. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AndyR100 Posted April 2 Report Share Posted April 2 On 4/1/2024 at 2:55 PM, monty said: That is what I use now that Millers 20/50 has got expensive. Usually I collect it from the Classic Oils stand @ Kop Hill. Yes, good choice - they do appear at quite a few gatherings, so always worth grabbing some (often I small discount as well) ……. Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted April 2 Report Share Posted April 2 10 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said: ""of high-Zinc (ZDDP content above1800 ppm)"" That is confusing. IF the ZDDP content really is 1800 ppm then Zn content would be around 250ppm- which is not 'high zinc'. IF the Zn content is 1800 ppm then the ZDDP will be about 7 times that ( because Zn is about one-seventh of the weight of the molecule). I suspect the scribes that write this stuff dont understand the chemistry. Peter Thanks Peter, I will enquire Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TRTOM2498PI Posted April 3 Report Share Posted April 3 On 3/29/2024 at 4:52 PM, phil Dean said: Probably open a bag or worms with this one but here goes. Whilst the car is up on axle stands with the diff out I thought I would drain the engine oil take the sump off see if it needs straightening and refit to again try and stop some more of my cars identity crisis. It thinks it's the Torrey Canyon. However what oil to use I have no idea whats in it or for how long. In the past I have used Valvoline 20W50 VR1 racing oil in the Avenger but it was a high revving semi comp engine. TRGB suggest Penrite 20w/60 but the problem is our engines need more than 5 litres and I am not sure you can get Penrite in 1 litre cans. I still have some Valvoline left from my last oil change on the Avenger so it might be the way to go. The engine on the TR as far as I know is standard. Anybody got any other suggestions dos or don't use. Phil. Hi. I use Penrite 20/60 and it is excellent. You can buy in 5L cans from Classic oils Penrite Classic Light – Motor Spirit ZDDP1610 Cheers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted April 13 Report Share Posted April 13 On 4/1/2024 at 10:15 AM, BlueTR3A-5EKT said: Me too. I have sufficient Motul 20/50 to do an oil change and will be doing so very soon. If it lunches my engine I will report back and also give Motul an earful. OK it’s in with a new filter. initial oil pressure is reassuring as it’s up at 65 psi warm at fast tickover more in a week when I’ve done some miles Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveN Posted 18 hours ago Report Share Posted 18 hours ago Specs for current Valvoline VR1 list zinc and phosorous separately. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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