New adventure begins in France!

[Waldi]

Good luck Blair. It will be very rewarding, hearing your engine fire for the first time. When I did this, I kept the rev’s above 2000-ish for the first 20 minutes (once I had it running) as per the recommendations on this forum, to ensure proper lubrication to the cam shaft and followers.

Waldi

 

[BlairP]

Greetings all, and sorry for the radio silence. Still trying to get my '69 to fire, so far without success. Having corrected several electrical glitches, it now cranks fully on the battery, but has not fired yet. I backfilled and bled the injectors, so now I'm wondering about the spark side. Here's where I stand:

Battery is new, puts 12.6V when fully charged (I've had to charge it a lot; bleeding injectors takes time)

With ignition on, + side of the coil reads 11.9V

Resistance across the coil is 4.4 ohms (!) with all wire connected; 3.2 with all disconnected. Unclear what the coil is, as it is completely unmarked (see pic)

What's the best way to proceed from here to test for spark?

As always, thanks in advance!

Blair

Edited May 27, 2022 by BlairP

[Waldi]

Hi Blair,

have you checked there is a spark?

Take one plug out (or take a spare), and crack the engine (2nd person). Hold plug against block so there is a good earth. That is important as you may get a shock if you do not earth the plug to the block.

If there is a spark, you can (for now) eliminate the ign. system.

3 Ohm resistance without wires sounds ok for an unballested coil, used before ca “73 (CP).

Later cars have the 1.5 Ohm coils.

Waldi

[John L]

Dont forget the rotor goes anti clockwise for the plug wires.  1 5 3 6 2 4.

As Waldi says check for a spark, if no spark check the points and the wires connected correctly to the spring and not earthing, check the little wire at the base of the distributor.

Check the little carbon brush in the distributor cap

Do you have a good rotor arm, the red ones are best.

I would slacken a couple of the injector pipes at the injector and crank the engine, bit like bleeding a diesel engine.

Do you have a spray of carb cleaner into the inlets when cranking, at least you know then you have a spark.

Could you have got the MU timed correctly?, #1 on top dead centre, remove the #6 injector fitting on the MU, do you have the opening at the very top, you may have to take out the rubber bung seal as well to get a better look.

Keep trying it will go....Let us know we are all waiting to hear it start/run

John

[astontr6]

2 hours ago, BlairP said:

Greetings all, and sorry for the radio silence. Still trying to get my '69 to fire, so far without success. Having corrected several electrical glitches, it now cranks fully on the battery, but has not fired yet. I backfilled and bled the injectors, so now I'm wondering about the spark side. Here's where I stand:

Battery is new, puts 12.6V when fully charged (I've had to charge it a lot; bleeding injectors takes time)

With ignition on, + side of the coil reads 11.9V

Resistance across the coil is 4.4 ohms (!) with all wire connected; 3.2 with all disconnected. Unclear what the coil is, as it is completely unmarked (see pic)

What's the best way to proceed from here to test for spark?

As always, thanks in advance!

Blair

Are those HT leads new? If they are I would check that the spark termination is in contact with the terminal of the spark plug and not right up inside the boot and the spark does not have to jump up to one inch . In the past I have had this problem with Sparkrite and Lumenition. I was told by a leading classic car restorer that this problem is very common with those two makes and others. That is one of the causes of hard starting.

Bruce,

Bruce.

[Richard Pope]

Try turning over in the dark and see if there is any shorting as one would see sparks.

Have you a timing light? That should prove a spark as well and also that it is correct timing.

[Kiwifrog]

I had an issue with my 3a the engine was running fine but after painting it would not go, I chased the spark and found that after paint all 4 plugs refused to create a spark. After changing all 4 plugs for new ones it ran perfectly. Don’t know that caused it and have never seen it before.

cheers

 

Alan

[John L]

I know this wont be much help to you in France, but I have found this tool really helpful in testing if you have sparks, without getting a big jolts up your arm!

https://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/2780/HT-Lead-Ignition-Spark-Tester

John

[BlairP]

Hello folks, I'm back again, still trying to get the engine to start. It started once briefly, ran lumpily for 30 seconds, then cut out for good. The timing on the MU was out, so I adjusted it as per the Brown Book. I've got good spark, and fuel pressure to the MU is correct (108 lbs), so I diagnosed injection problems.

I removed and backfilled all the injectors and lines again, then hung them and ran the fuel pump for 30 minutes. As you can see from the pictures, it was quite a rig!

My question is this: You can see in the pics that the amount off fuel caught from each injector varies widely, from a lot to a very little. And in one, the liquid in the bag is clear rather than amber. Is there more I need to do to ensure the injectors (rebuilt by Neil Ferguson) are functioning correctly? Or should I go ahead and bung them in the manifold, spray in carb cleaner, and see if she'll start?

Thanks in advance, as always!

Blair 

Edited June 23, 2022 by BlairP

[Jonny TR6]

Hi Blair - new to TRs but not new to petrol. What ethanol level have you got in the tank and when did you put the petrol in ? Ethanol in petrol is hygroscopic I.e it absorbs water, so you could potentially be sucking in water into the head if the petrol is high ethanol and old.

Also - how old is the MU ? from my brief reading on MUs they have a rubber diaphragm in which can get eaten away over time by ethanol.

Just a thought or two to consider !

Cheers and good luck

Jonny

[Mike C]

1 hour ago, Jonny TR6 said:

Hi Blair - new to TRs but not new to petrol. What ethanol level have you got in the tank and when did you put the petrol in ? Ethanol in petrol is hygroscopic I.e it absorbs water, so you could potentially be sucking in water into the head if the petrol is high ethanol and old.

Also - how old is the MU ? from my brief reading on MUs they have a rubber diaphragm in which can get eaten away over time by ethanol.

Just a thought or two to consider !

Cheers and good luck

Jonny

And how old is the fuel? My TR won't start easily on fuel more than a  month or so  old unless I add Stabil. I've had  two  fuelling diaphragms destroyed by modern fuel- if this happens fuel leaks copiously from the MU bleed hole.

[Jonny TR6]

Read last night that France has Superethanol - 85% ethanol !!

Gadzooks - it was the most popular fuel recently due to the fuel price increases.

Other blends are available though.

[BlairP]

8 hours ago, Jonny TR6 said:

Hi Blair - new to TRs but not new to petrol. What ethanol level have you got in the tank and when did you put the petrol in ? Ethanol in petrol is hygroscopic I.e it absorbs water, so you could potentially be sucking in water into the head if the petrol is high ethanol and old.

Also - how old is the MU ? from my brief reading on MUs they have a rubber diaphragm in which can get eaten away over time by ethanol.

Just a thought or two to consider !

Cheers and good luck

Jonny

The fuel is 5% ethanol, 2-3 months old now. MU was rebuilt by Neil Ferguson, so all internal parts are new.

[BlairP]

Hello all; turning to the board in frustration.

I fitted a Bosch-type fuel pump and diaphragm PRV, and dialled in the pressure at 110 psi: no problem. To fully charge my injectors and injector lines, I hung the injectors vertically (to purge all the air) and ran the pump for 30 minutes, until fuel was spraying from all six. I re-installed them, and tried to  start the motor: nothing. Removing the injectors to inspect them, I had next to no spray. So I re-attached the fuel-pressure gauge, and I'm now only getting about 20 psi of fuel pressure; adjusting the PRV makes no difference - the dial doesn't move.

Anyone got any thoughts? I'm stumped.

Thanks, Blair 

[Jonny TR6]

Maybe post a pic of your PRV, brass T and pump/filter areas. See if any of the gurus can spot any plumbing issues.

[roy53]

As it was pumping to pressure before i assume it's pump problem

[John L]

Blair

Can you give a picture of the top of the distributer without the cap, somebody spotted an error on fixing the points not so long ago.

If you squirt some inflammable liquid into the manifold when cranking, do you get any sort of reaction? bang /  pop that may indicate, you at least have a spark?

John

[Mike C]

8 hours ago, BlairP said:

Hello all; turning to the board in frustration.

I fitted a Bosch-type fuel pump and diaphragm PRV, and dialled in the pressure at 110 psi: no problem. To fully charge my injectors and injector lines, I hung the injectors vertically (to purge all the air) and ran the pump for 30 minutes, until fuel was spraying from all six. I re-installed them, and tried to  start the motor: nothing. Removing the injectors to inspect them, I had next to no spray. So I re-attached the fuel-pressure gauge, and I'm now only getting about 20 psi of fuel pressure; adjusting the PRV makes no difference - the dial doesn't move.

Anyone got any thoughts? I'm stumped.

Thanks, Blair 

Did all 6 injectors spray with the engine stationary?

[BlairP]

Thanks for your replies, gentlemen. I've attached the pics requested by several of you. The distributor pic is at 11 BTDC on the firing stroke.

6F52E573-A51E-4574-AB49-E2DB923A5594.heic IMG_5263.HEIC

[BlairP]

And here's a video I did of testing the fuel pump. It seems to be pumping very little, or does this look correct to those of you more in the know than I am?

Blair

[astontr6]

On 10/17/2022 at 6:40 PM, Jonny TR6 said:

Maybe post a pic of your PRV, brass T and pump/filter areas. See if any of the gurus can spot any plumbing issues.

What exactly is the name of the pump. As some of these look alike Bosch pumps are ****. I personally would only fit a genuine Bosch or Sytec.

Bruce.

[super6al]

Hi Blair

Certainly the pump isn't doing its job, however. Go through the basics before condemning it. Check fuel is getting to it & filters are not blocked etc. Re check your voltage supply & earth is good.

Out of curiosity how did you run the pump & injectors for 30 mins without the MU operating. Not sure how you can get all 6 spraying without the engine running?

Alan

[BlairP]

5 hours ago, super6al said:

Hi Blair

Certainly the pump isn't doing its job, however. Go through the basics before condemning it. Check fuel is getting to it & filters are not blocked etc. Re check your voltage supply & earth is good.

Out of curiosity how did you run the pump & injectors for 30 mins without the MU operating. Not sure how you can get all 6 spraying without the engine running?

Alan

I suspended the injectors vertically from the ceiling, with plastic bags wrapped around each. Even though the MU didn't turn, fuel got to all six.

And following your advice, I dismounted and took apart the pump. There was a big piece of swarth (schmutz) blocking the entry to the filter from the pump itself; how it got there is anyone's guess, as I have a pre-filter fitted into the fuel line as well.

Long story short: Cleaned it out, re-assembled, and I'm back at 110 psi!

Thanks everyone!

   

[BlairP]

Success! Thanks to much help from many people here from the very beginning, my re-built engine finally started this morning, and ran strongly  for 15 minutes - before overheating, because in my constant searching for leaks, adjusting, etc., etc., I forgot to check if the new electric fan had turned on, which it hadn't. Fortunately, the overflow bottle warned me, and I shut down. 

Now to find the problem with the fan!

Blair

[CK's TR6]

Blair, you did good. The key about running for 15-20 minutes right off is to get critical deposits from the oil deposited on the cam and “flat” tappets. This is mostly to get a good layer of ZDDP deposited at the wear surface between the tappet and the cam lobe. That protects those wear surfaces at the contact point which can see 200,000 psi load. That is why there are break in oils and/high ZDDP oils. And also why using detergent oils is not the best idea as it strips that coating away.  

? bone conduite voiture?

Bonnie nuit