DfT and DVLA launch call for evidence around registering historic, classic and rebuilt vehicles

[Aldpilot]

Folks, see the link around something being launched today by DVLA around registration for Classic vehicles. Those who are serial builders must have a vested interest in giving their 4 penny worth.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for-evidence/registering-historic-classic-rebuilt-vehicles-and-vehicles-converted-to-electric-call-for-evidence

 

Regards

Mike

Edited May 9 by Aldpilot

[stuart]

Hmm bit of a slippery slope some of the questions asked.

Paging Graham Andrews.

Stuart.

[Grahamgl]

Gentlemen,

In the light of the above DVLA proposed changes to the registration process would it be advisable for me to seek the first UK registration of my USA imported TR4 now in advance of any changes to the registration process? Currently the car is totally dismantled and the parts are presently being restored by specialists. Can it be registered as it is or do I have to wait until it has been re-assembled and the restoration completed?

Thanks for any advice as how to proceed.My thoughts are to seek to register it now as the conditions attached to the process are known.

Thanks

Graham

[RobH]

Who on earth dreamed this one up:

If you think it’s appropriate to ensure the components used to build a vehicle must be more than 25 years old and within the period the model of vehicle was originally manufactured, please provide evidence and reasons to support your views.

Guaranteed to make old vehicles unrestorable !

 

[trchris]

Well from my understanding then everyone who’s changed their chassis or had more than 25% body panels changed in a restoration will need a Q plate registration 

Chris

[Keith Wigglesworth]

Luckily I have had my cars for more than 25 years and made modifications some time ago. It would seem they are most concerned about modified rather than replaced items and I think this will keep the government’s nose out of most our rebuilding work. However, is a tr4 engine in a tr2 like for like or modified? Girdling axle?  I have reported all modifications to my insurer’s religiously and I’m glad I have as I will have an audit trail when our hobby becomes out of step with future attitudes.

My cars are always taxed and insured and constantly in use from a government perspective. I saved £12 this week on the Khan tax by driving to Pinner in my TR instead of my clean modern diesel. How long will this state of affairs be allowed to continue? And the no cost historic status may be reconsidered now Ken Clark is out of the picture and Labour will need a ‘popular’ tax raising stunt. 
oh I could go on….

Keith

[Steve-B]

I keep looking at the registration section, as with several hundred thousand historic vehicles, I expect them to be coming after them for roadtax or they will move the goalposts to much older (e.g., 60yrs before tax exempt) as lots of folks have figured out you can avoid ULEZ by having a historic/vintage car.

They also seem to be struggling with the word "modifications" and this robably is where the big rub is. Would converting to LED lights which are nothing more than bulb replacements count, or replacing an aging bad B/L fuel pump with a new Bosch one count? Or installing more modern seats vs. OEM seats count.

There's a rather wide-net being cast here.

[Charlie D]

Just spotted this on YouTube:

 

[iain]

Personal I think the FBHVC should issue guidance on how to answer this. It’s a strange document with most answers in Freeform. How on earth is this going to be accurately summarised? Very much dependant  upon the individual reading and making a judgement. In my opinion it’s has the potential to be used in any way the government of the time sees fit. 
Iain

Wayne, I hope you are reading this and can orchestrate some sensible communication to ensure we the enthusiasts are not lead down paths that are inappropriate and potentially very damaging to the Classic Car movement.

[Ecosse]

I suspect that just about every TR currently on the road could be liable to be issued with a Q-plate. Rather than all the talk of changing the club name, attracting younger members etc.etc. perhaps the Register should be focused on informing the current membership of where the stand with regard to the law.

My concern is that the current, and future governments, have realised that there is money to be made out of Historic vehicle owners and I think that we may well be in for a nasty shock it the not too distant future.

As has been noted, the DVLA 'Call for Evidence' document is hardly user friendly and can be used in any way the government sees fit, I may even go as far as to say they already have a plan in place.

So an open request to the MT, are there any plans for the TR Register to investigate, advise and assist members on this subject.

[TR4Tony VC]

1 hour ago, Ecosse said:

I suspect that just about every TR currently on the road could be liable to be issued with a Q-plate. Rather than all the talk of changing the club name, attracting younger members etc.etc. perhaps the Register should be focused on informing the current membership of where the stand with regard to the law.

My concern is that the current, and future governments, have realised that there is money to be made out of Historic vehicle owners and I think that we may well be in for a nasty shock it the not too distant future.

As has been noted, the DVLA 'Call for Evidence' document is hardly user friendly and can be used in any way the government sees fit, I may even go as far as to say they already have a plan in place.

So an open request to the MT, are there any plans for the TR Register to investigate, advise and assist members on this subject.

This is a really important issue for the club to engage in. Who is doing so on the MT?

Regards

Tony 

[OldBob]

1 hour ago, TR4Tony VC said:

This is a really important issue for the club to engage in. Who is doing so on the MT?

Regards

Tony 

They're far too busy with the REALLY important stuff - like changing our Club's name !

[Ian Vincent]

This issue has been on the forum since last Thursday but one has to assume that those in the know (like the contributors to the video posted above) have been aware of it for far longer.

It is worrying that there has been no response on here from our MT saying something to the effect of “We’re on it.”  Which is either another example of how utterly incompetent they are when it comes to group communication or they genuinely haven’t recognised this as an important issue and are doing nothing.

Both of these alternatives suggest that they really aren’t up to the job.

Rgds Ian

[Ralph Whitaker]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:45 PM, Grahamgl said:

Gentlemen,

In the light of the above DVLA proposed changes to the registration process would it be advisable for me to seek the first UK registration of my USA imported TR4 now in advance of any changes to the registration process? Currently the car is totally dismantled and the parts are presently being restored by specialists. Can it be registered as it is or do I have to wait until it has been re-assembled and the restoration completed?

Thanks for any advice as how to proceed.My thoughts are to seek to register it now as the conditions attached to the process are known.

Thanks

Graham

Unfortunately Graham, you have to provide photos of the finished car. They will not issue a number on a pile of bits.

Ralph

[john.r.davies]

Rather than gossip and raise anxiety levels, this is what the Register should be doing, making contact with the Gov, the FBHVC and any 'friendly' parliamentarians, to find out what is behind this, and to provide said evidence.

I hope that the Register is doing exactly that.

John

[Mick Forey]

Absolutely correct. It is very important that the FBHVC provide some guidance to politically charged questions like this. Only they have the contacts within government to understand the background. They did a great job on the last survey/questionnaire. We are trying to get their input on this and will advise members asap.

Mick

[trchris]

I would think this has come about with the increasing numbers of classic car derived modified cars that run around on black with white/ silver lettering number plates and period chassis numbers yet are only 10% of the original manufactured factory vehicle. How many classic cars are totally, money no object restored with new chassis’s, almost all panels, interior trim , colour change etc around ? are these classed as classics as the number plate dictates you could argue no how many parts are 40+ years old ? Don’t shoot I’m only saying 

Chris

[Ian Vincent]

1 hour ago, Mick Forey said:

Absolutely correct. It is very important that the FBHVC provide some guidance to politically charged questions like this. Only they have the contacts within government to understand the background. They did a great job on the last survey/questionnaire. We are trying to get their input on this and will advise members asap.

Mick

Thank you Mick but why didn’t we get this info last week.  Please can the MT be a bit quicker off the mark on issues like this at keeping the membership informed. And the forum is a great place to start. 

Rgds Ian

[Mick Forey]

The FBHVC only met on this subject for the first time today, which we played a part in instigating. They will now formulate their guidance to clubs and individuals, which will be carefully considered. It will then be issued to all clubs. The call for evidence closes on 4 July, so plenty of time to get it right.

Mick

[keith1948]

My TR is FIVA registered so has some sort of European status as a classic car but has got some modifications and various new bits. I have emailed FIVA to ask them about the Crit'Air stickers that are now in use across France for ULEZ zones. There is no sticker for a classic car even though they are exempt. Classics are lumped together with 'old' cars. Therefore a camera recognition system or the local traffic warden has to differentiate which is which. There should be a sticker for the classic car so there is no argument over its ULEZ status. I haven't had a reply from FIVA. In Germany I think the number plate identifies a classic or old-timer car. In the UK of course we have nothing. It would be easy for DVLA to issue a tax disc (remember those) with classic status on it that could be displayed on the car. I have a FIVA sticker and badge for what its worth.

Keith

[john.r.davies]

6 hours ago, Mick Forey said:

The FBHVC only met on this subject for the first time today, which we played a part in instigating. They will now formulate their guidance to clubs and individuals, which will be carefully considered. It will then be issued to all clubs. The call for evidence closes on 4 July, so plenty of time to get it right.

Mick

Thank you, Mick!   Let's hope jone of the wilder ideas work put.

John

[Mick Forey]

The FBHVC has issued a press release this morning, see the attached in word & pdf:

 

They have also issue this request to all clubs and their members:

 

This is an urgent call-to-action! 
 
You may be aware of the 9 May Government announcement of a wide-ranging consultation about the registration of historic vehicles https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/news/article/dft-and-dvla-launch-call-for-evidence-around-registering-historic-classic-and-rebuilt-vehicles
 
In total, the consultation asks 50 questions in 12 subject headings. It covers all historic vehicles - not solely cars - of all types, and are all represented within the Federation.
 
Please find attached a Press Release (in Word and PDF) explaining how the Federation has set out its provisional position on each of the areas and is calling for your feedback in an online questionnaire. 
 
We are seeking your club’s and your members’ feedback, along with that from our wider supporter membership and community.
 
This will help shape the Federation’s formal response to the consultation, on a topic of great importance that affects the entire movement. 
 
The consultation offers FBHVC member clubs the opportunity to shape the creation and evolution of policies to preserve our ability to restore, register, and use historic vehicles efficiently and fairly for tomorrow’s roads. 
 
We strongly encourage you to share this information – and importantly the link https://evidence.fbhvc.co.uk/ – with all your members and wider historic vehicle friends (such as through social media).
 
The more people who respond to us the better, as this will ensure that our collective voices will carry considerable weight. 
 
It’s taken a very long time - and a huge amount of extremely hard work by our dedicated team - to get to this position, as we battled on your behalf. 
 
Now, it’s over to you!

 

The MT will be formulating the club's formal response to the Federation position. It will be hugely supportive of the FBHVC but we need to go through it in detail to see if we can add anything of substance. In the meantime, please click on the link: https://evidence.fbhvc.co.uk/ and respond to the questionnaire yourselves. It is far better for the classic car community to respond via the FBHVC rather that direct to the DVLA. We have a greater voice when we act together.

A cynic could say that the government's actions to open up the call for evidence to the public is that it did not like the response it had already received from the industry bodies, so it may be an attempt to divide (and conquer) the community. We need to stick together, please support the FBHVC.

This message will be going out to all our members asap.

Many thanks,

Mick

FBHVC DVLA consultation position-final.docx FBHVC DVLA consultation position-final.pdf

[Bluestone]

Nice one Mick

[RobH]

I read through the FBHVC responses and am not too sure about the bit highlighted.  The FIVA definition seems to exclude any car in daily use, from being considered 'historic' .  That seem to me to be nonsensical - surely frequency of use should have no bearing ?  As it is this seems to open the door to agreeing to restrictions on use - which I know exist in other countries but not yet here.  Dangerous territory ? 

 

Q1 - What is a historic or classic vehicle?

Answer:

FBHVC consider that the international definition advocated by FIVA (Fédération Internationale des Véhicules Anciens) should be used. This defines a historic vehicle as “a mechanically propelled […] vehicle at least 30 years old, preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition, which is not used as means of daily transport and which is therefore part of our technical and cultural heritage.”

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 12:45 PM by RobH

[Charlie D]

1 hour ago, RobH said:

...which is not used as means of daily transport...

I suppose that statement is similar to the conditions needed to insure your car as a “Classic”. When insuring classics I’ve always been asked by the insurance company if I have another car to use as my daily driver. In my case the answer is “Yes”. I would guess if I said “No”, the premium would go up, but that is all.

The phrase “not used as means of daily transport “ is a bit odd in it’s self. What actually is “Daily transport”?

Is use 4 days a week classed as "Daily transport? (Or does it have to be 7 days?)

Does my antique tea pot stop being an antique if I use it every day to make a cup of tea?

Charlie.