Waterless engine Coolant

[Cambsguy]

Hi, I have a 1973 TR6, I was watching "Wheeler Dealers" programme and Ed topped up the TR6 he was working with waterless Coolant , Is it worth draining/flushing the engine of water coolant and replacing it with waterless coolant, any tips etc? 

[John Morrison]

I wouldn’t 

lots of info on this forum and you are ‘Fixing something that ain’t broken’

my regime is 25% Blue antifreeze changed every two years I actually alternate the flush and change with a brake fluid swap 

John

[Hawk]

13 minutes ago, John Morrison said:

I wouldn’t 

lots of info on this forum and you are ‘Fixing something that ain’t broken’

my regime is 25% Blue antifreeze changed every two years I actually alternate the flush and change with a brake fluid swap 

John

+1 

[Nigel Triumph]

+1 from me.

I also agree with John. A glycol based coolant is fine for our engines and waterless is an unnecessary expense.

Could it be there is some product placement happening on TV??

Nigel

[james christie]

This (expensive?) stuff gets pushed at us every now and then. I don’t understand enough about it to call it snake oil, but ……..

What’s wrong with a glycol based coolant changed every 2 years or so (as suggested above). It has done me well for well over 50 years

james

[RogerH]

Plain water has the best heat capturing properties.  Adding any coolant reduces this ability.

100% coolant has the least ability.

It will not boil over but will get quite hot.

From a practical point of view you will need to carry a gallon or so in the boot just in case you need a top up en route.

 

Roger

[ianc]

I have been using Evans Waterless for some years in my modified cooling system, which has a sealed expansion tank (see TR Action112 (Feb '94) or Technicalities B18).

It is expensive, so you don't want to lose any of it,

When working on the cooling system, I drain it into a container and pour it back afterwards.

The coolant has been in there since 2017, always comes out clean as a whistle and, with a sealed system, I never need change it nor to top up.

Ian Cornish

[Tim T]

I used it in my 1959 TR3a. I don't use it in my 1968 TR5! It is not as simple as draining the system and refilling with waterless coolant. The system has to be purged and every last drop of water removed. As Roger says you would need to carry a top up supply. You can top up with water but then you have to start again if you want to continue to go waterless. It seems to find any weak point in the cooling system, I was constantly topping mine up with no signs of where it was going. It is very expensive. You can drain it and reuse if you need to. My advice would be to get your standard cooling system in good order.

I would not use again.

Cheers,

Tim

[RobH]

As has been pointed out many times before, pure glycol (which is what this stuff is) has a rather lower 'specific heat' than water (0.56 instead of 1) meaning that the same volume of liquid can only hold half as much heat. What that means in simple terms is that to move the same amount of heat from the engine to the radiator, the coolant flow would need to be nearly twice as large as with water.

Unfortunately glycol is also 15 times more viscous than water so doesn't flow as well either - which makes things even less ideal.  

Although the temperature of the coolant will look the same when using pure glycol, ( because the temperature gauge only reads this) the temperature of the engine internals will be rather higher than with water coolant, because the heat just isn't being shifted at the same rate.  How much higher will depend on the particular characteristics of the system.

[Ian Vincent]

FWIW, I have using Fernox Alpha for the last couple of years. Apart from being kinder to the environment (allegedly), it only has to be changed every 10 years.

Rgds Ian 

[tim hunt]

2 hours ago, Nigel Triumph said:

+1 from me.

I also agree with John. A glycol based coolant is fine for our engines and waterless is an unnecessary expense.

Could it be there is some product placement happening on TV??

Nigel

Surely not!!

[stuart]

Snake oil Im afraid, banned from racing as its flammable under pressure, anyone running EFI dont use it as it makes the ECU run the engine rich as it confuses the temperature readings, which is also why its not used in moderns either.

Weve just removed it from a TR5 and the owner is a lot happier as his heater works properly now.

Stuart.

[Cambsguy]

thank you all for your input and advice, I don't have an issue with overheating etc so Ill stick to water and antifreeze , just that i saw it on TV thought i may be missing something I should not be 

[Andy Moltu]

It's flammable, doesn't cool as well as regular glycol/water mix.

Having a higher boiling point isn't that relevant as by the time the engine gets that hot it's in big trouble.

By those criteria you could fill the rad with brake fluid.....

Antifreeze mixed with water and corrosion inhibitors has stood the test of time because it is effective at its job of cooling the engine, taking that heat to the radiator where the heat is lost to the atmosphere whilst at the same time preventing corrosion in the waterways and not freezing when it gets really cold. Too much antifreeze in the mix and cooling is compromised for no gain in corrosion protection and in most climates an irrelevant increase in level of frost protection. When did it last get down to -30C in England?

Yes it might not boil if you forget to put the rad cap, on but that's about as much as I can say in it's favour.

[Steve-B]

The only motors I've ever seen the justification for use in is Ally blocks, like Rover K-series engines. There you don't want water to contact ally I'm told as there is a reaction over time hence Caterham/Lotus owners use a waterless coolant which name I cannot recall.

[Trev Good]

On 4/11/2024 at 11:10 AM, stuart said:

Snake oil Im afraid, banned from racing as its flammable under pressure, anyone running EFI dont use it as it makes the ECU run the engine rich as it confuses the temperature readings, which is also why its not used in moderns either.

Weve just removed it from a TR5 and the owner is a lot happier as his heater works properly now.

Stuart.

Not in my TRs, but the MG came with the waterless coolant, heater doesn't work well!

[michaelfinnis]

Following quote is from the book ‘The Merlin in Perspectve’ about the Rolls Royce Merlin engine as used in the Spitfire and many other aircraft. Seems relevant.

Cooling systems
Early Merlins used 100 per cent ethylene glycol cooling which allowed 135°
coolant temperature, but with the advent of the Merlin XII a major move was made
to pressure water cooling using 30 per cent glycol as anti-freeze. The advantages
of water as a cooling medium are considerable. With 135°C coolant temperature
the mixture at 15 lb per square inch reduces the cylinder head metal temperature by
some 30°C when compared with 100 per cent glycol.

[michaelfinnis]

Further to the above, the pure glycol coolant was also flammable, not ideal in combat.

[jimt]

On 4/11/2024 at 9:44 AM, Ian Vincent said:

FWIW, I have using Fernox Alpha for the last couple of years. Apart from being kinder to the environment (allegedly), it only has to be changed every 10 years.

Rgds Ian 

I’ve been using Fernox Alphi 11 in my other cars for several years. When I first heard of its use in our type of cars I did contact Fernox’ technical dept- they said whilst they didn’t market it for vehicles it would do what it was designed to do as per their data sheets and not cause any harm to metals / gaskets components etc.

It’s a mono propylene glycol so non toxic -it’s in coke apparently (no the drink:)- so won’t kill you or the cat and is readily biodegradable so enviro friendly. Whilst it’ll cost you twice as much as the blue stuff it doesn’t need changing every 2 years- they don’t have a recommended change time as it’s designed for long term use in enclosed heating systems- so good for life as long as you top up with the same % mix - and therefore very cost effective even if you decide to change at 10 year intervals. I’ve had it in a vintage for over 7 years and the last test I did of a sample in my freezer showed it still to be effective. 

https://files.plytix.com/api/v1.1/file/public_files/pim/assets/45/7d/ae/5f/5fae7d45c573435950d65e1e/texts/00/86/2e/60/602e8600f201f3d490838cdb/61033-Alphi-11-Antifreeze-Protector-5-Litre.pdf

Edited April 13 by jimt

[timhum]

Also that episode was 12 years old, it doesn't seem to have caught on in the last few years.

 

Tim

[RobH]

13 hours ago, jimt said:

last test I did of a sample in my freezer showed it still to be effective. 

Effective as an antifreeze perhaps but what about anti - corrosion?  I understand that using up the corrosion inhibitors is why normal coolant is recommended to be swapped often - not loss of its antifreeze properties. 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

2 hours ago, RobH said:

Effective as an antifreeze perhaps but what about anti - corrosion?  I understand that using up the corrosion inhibitors is why normal coolant is recommended to be swapped often - not loss of its antifreeze properties. 

The very reason I have today changed the coolant in my car some 2  years after pouring it in.

 

[jimt]

On 4/13/2024 at 9:15 PM, RobH said:

Effective as an antifreeze perhaps but what about anti - corrosion?  I understand that using up the corrosion inhibitors is why normal coolant is recommended to be swapped often - not loss of its antifreeze properties. 

Thanks for educating me on that Rob - wasn’t aware of that! I’ve recontacted their technical dept (told them it’s in a vehicle radiator) they recommend that as long as the original input is still clean you “ ….add a fresh dose of the F1 (corrosion & scale inhibitor) every 5 years as this is its working life” .  The F1 is currently £15 from screwfix for 500ml - which treats 130 litres so you’d get 20 doses for a 6’s system - so still very cost effective even if done every few years. 

Edited April 15 by jimt

[michaelfinnis]

Blue antifreeze concentrate is about £6 a litre. Why spend so much effort trying to find an alternative which may or may not be good for your engine when purpose designed coolant is so cheap and readily available?

Mike.

[Ian Vincent]

1 hour ago, michaelfinnis said:

Blue antifreeze concentrate is about £6 a litre. Why spend so much effort trying to find an alternative which may or may not be good for your engine when purpose designed coolant is so cheap and readily available?

Mike.

One reason is because the blue stuff is very toxic. And it’s not about spending a lot of time looking for an alternative, the alternative has been out there for a while. 

But in the end it comes down to personal choice, I went with Fernox and to date am happy with it.

Rgds Ian