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9 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Yes, there is a little but nothing dramatic .. difficult to assess by hand but I'd guess no more than 0.5mm vertical play.

Pete

If you can feel play at all then it is a good idea to replace that bush.

Stuart.

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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Can anyone advise me on lubrication please.  The Tr4 /4A workshop manual is, to my way of reading, not very clear.

This is what I have  . . .

  P1400104s.thumb.JPG.08cea0a60fa8973bb628c880a556d995.JPG

^ there's a grease (or gear oil) nipple at the top rather than underneath, and the reddish rust-stained appearance of parts all suggests a lack of lubrication. 

P1400105s.JPG.a784a70c44c2550217026bbb7c6fcaca.JPG

.. If anything looks amiss please advise.

Pete.

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11 minutes ago, stuart said:

If you can feel play at all then it is a good idea to replace that bush.

Stuart.

Thank you.  I've now got some new gaiters lined up and I've yet to check the driver's side for wear or damage, but will add swapping out the bushes to the job list.  I guess it's a rack out job to get those bushes out, and as suggested by Peter W / BlueTR3A-5EKT  specialist tools will also be required.

Pete

 

 

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One of the weak spots on the TR4a, the lube is supposed to pump in the trunnion grease nipple travel down to the bottom of the trunnion thread and then back up the thread until the nipple is again reached. Water ingress and rust build up prevents the grease reaching all parts which means a sheared trunnion at some time.
This mostly happens at high strain manouvere time, 3 point turns or max lock slow cornering, there’s not much strain at 60 mph on a motorway. 
As I remember a fix is solder the bottom of the trunnion disc to the shank making it fluid proof, then use HP 90 instead of grease pumped in to the grease nipple. 

Mick Richards

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The diameter of the bush bearing on the passanger side is about 23.5 mm, in my racks tube is an offset to about 22 mm.

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To pull it out I usesd a 24 mm socket (a 1" socket could also work), a short M8 threaded bar and a big M8 washer (3xd).

The washers diameter is about 24 mm (3xd) and I reduced to about 22 mm to go through the tube, fixed it on the bar with 2 M8 nuts.

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I tried to do several repairs with my original steering rack, even with a very special made bronze bush.

Finally I did what I shoud have done first: replaced it by a new steering rack.

 

The problem with the pinion, plunger and shims construction on the driver side is:

the toothed bar is pressed against the pinion from above by a spring loaded plunger, fitted in a shimmed cap (photo is upside down)

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The plunger should slide on the rear side of the toothed bar's surface - but rasps on it.

In the center it rasps every time you turn the steering wheel = most, out of the center less, on the left and right end never.

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If you want to reduce the play and shim the cap to the (worn) center of the rack - can you can't steer anymore!

This is why you have to shim the cap according to the not worn left and right end - and have the maximum play in the center!

The center position of the steering you use when you drive fast and straight ahead = maximum play!

In my mind the play should cause nothing, because the play is 90° to the movement of the steering movement.

But indeed with the new rack all problems with vibration have been gone, sadly not the poor quality gaiters.

And sadly another problem appeared by the construction of the new rack,

I'm shure others with a new rack also have this problem but did not noticed it....

Ciao, Marco

Edited by Z320
I added more informations and photos from 2014
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2 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

One of the weak spots on the TR4a, the lube is supposed to pump in the trunnion grease nipple travel down to the bottom of the trunnion thread and then back up the thread until the nipple is again reached. Water ingress and rust build up prevents the grease reaching all parts which means a sheared trunnion at some time.
This mostly happens at high strain manouvere time, 3 point turns or max lock slow cornering, there’s not much strain at 60 mph on a motorway. 
As I remember a fix is solder the bottom of the trunnion disc to the shank making it fluid proof, then use HP 90 instead of grease pumped in to the grease nipple. 

Mick Richards

Interesting comments, Mick, being completely ignorant of TR4s, with only small chassis experience.

There, HP90 is recommended, not grease, something that newbies regularly query.   And the thread on the bottom of the upright is slotted, twice, possibly to allow the 'oil-gun' to force water and foreign matter out more easily?

John

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I have a TR4 John, (not 4a, so my opinion is not a proven circumstance) and my observations regarding the trunnion problem is seeing the shearing off happen to a couple of club members with 4a (not at the same time) in pub car parks when they were shunting with plenty of lock. I also seem to remember Moggy Minors suffered with a similar problem.

I think the small chassis Triumphs have similar problems and as you say the lube does need to travel down and then up the threads forcing c r a p and rust out with it, the HP 90 certainly is more capable of   flowing easier rather than a grease. You just need to find a way to keep it in the trunnions, hence the soldering up the trunnion bottom cap to the trunnion casting.

Mick Richards  

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Excellent replies - Thank you Gentlemen..  And I appreciate the additional photos from Marco.  It's very useful to see exactly what your are saying ..I'm glad to see you took your photos in English :ph34r:   ... ;)

I rebuilt a Citroen steering rack a few years back, needing to replace the guts of my rack and pinion ..from another model of car (because my car was too rare to find the correct parts for).  It worked great but changed the steering ratio ever-so-slightly.

post-20151-0-45489000-1496965838.jpg    post-20151-0-91667000-1496940502.jpg

^ Oops pinion that didn't work very well. It's not at all worn but damaged beyond use. ..And you think you have problems with Triumphs !  Anyway I resolved the issue and managed to identify the cause, which in essence came down to needing to tighten the track-rod-ends up ..only  when the suspension was normally loaded. This was not something mentioned in the manuals.

From Citroen's diagram (above) you can see its thrust button (plunger) with its spring (items 16 & 17) on the right hand side.  The spring pre-loads the pinion against the toothed rack, and also allows the interlocking teeth to lift off a little when the steering hits a bump.  Marco, the spring's give also compensates for lesser or no wear towards the extremities of lock (left and right ends of travel). Suitably lubricated the button (plunger) and back face of the rack will polish together but shouldn't rasp.  Over many miles the rack and the button (plunger) will of course wear excessively, possibly through their surface hardening ..which will then tend to rasp, and so need to be replaced.

Without pulling my rack apart, I cannot say how badly worn these rack or pinion or thrust button are worn, but the end bushes clearly have a little play in them. I think they need to be on the job list but not at the very top.  I have yet to check anything on the offside, but for feeling for any slack on that side ..and if there is any - then it's very little.  

Today, I emptied one of my motorcycle-kit grease guns and refilled it with gear oil to use on the bottom steering trunnion. . . 

P1400107s.JPG.10829ea4fd4c39ee544ed437b8e990be.JPG    P1400109s.JPG.820b271a9485dc1a59ffe66430a8670d.JPG

^ that's darn slippery oil when you get it on your hands !   I pumped that oil in until a little grease came out of the top rubber-boot, and then pumped some more, left it for half-an-hour while I topped up the grease in my other grease gun and did the wishbone's top ball-joint & track-rod-end (their different sized nipples needed different grease guns) and then, after refilling the gun, pumped the bottom trunnion with oil again until it was coming out all around that boot.  I'm now leaving the excess to drip off.  I think I'll leave myself a mental note to do that again in a 100 miles.  There's no discernible play in the trunnions and I'd like to keep it like that.

I cannot see how to lubricate the bottom wishbone  trunnions, without removing the road spring, but the manual (page 4-106 item 36) shows it to have nylon bushes, so I'm hoping these were assembled with silicon and don't otherwise require lubrication, despite the TR4 showing grease nipples for these.?

As an aside I didn't like this lock washer (below) so swapped it out. . .

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^ spring / lock washer stretched open.   I don't see the purpose of the spacer tube between that and the splash guard clamped to the back of the brake caliper, so I've swapped the bolt for a shorter one and did away with the spacer.

The brake pads are in good shape, but the rubber boots in the caliper feel hard, so I'll get a set of those in stock for when I change those pads. Aside from pinching up the bolts through the wishbone (most were replaced by M&T and have settled with use) and a bit of cleaning up and repainting, a bit of Copaslip here n' there rubbed into the brake-pipe's securing clips to help prevent corrosion, I think that's it for this side for the time being.

With the wheel back on.. the play in the steering or anything else in this corner would, I'm confident in believing, not be flagged in an MOT.  And thankfully no more clonk !

We'll come back to the steering rack and other bits ..after other higher priority items have been deal with. 

Many thanks to those who have contributed invaluable advice. 

Pete.      

P1400113s.JPG.588a5b8e421f120f5797a87bcee61fce.JPG

 

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 I moved across to the RHS / offside front suspension this afternoon with the intent of inspection, a quick clean up & repaint, and lubrication.  I ended up with more items on my job list . . 

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^ first impressions is that it's tidier than the LHS was, still . . .

P1400116s.JPG.9240ae695b3d6cdd6eb07a6491d8bceb.JPG   P1400117s.JPG.df58573ce22ec14bc2582bc6025c0da6.JPG

^ the steering rack gaiter is shot.

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^ track rod end gaiter, most likely pinched ..and now split.

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^ Lower wishbone trunnion, also severely rusty (long-term and from its inside)

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^ Brake pads held in with a set screw. 

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^ Top wishbone ball-joint cap has a hole alongside the grease nipple (it was a small sized one which I removed to clean things up, so I could see what was what).  Although this had a nylon body washer over it, the grease was still coming out of the little hole.

 

So., for now . . . 

The steering rack gaiter I can't do anything about until I get the replacement in.

The track rod end gaiter is not perished so I'm trying a 'fix' of CT1 over it . . .

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^ Cleaned off first with carb cleaner, it's a fudge ..and it'll either work or not.  If not then a new track rod end is pretty cheap as and when it's required.

Lower wishbone trunnion ; I realised that if I lift under the wishbones to take the road-springs compression, then I ought be able to release the lower wishbone trunnion bolt to lubricate those nylon bushes.  On the other hand I also know how stubbornly a steel bolt through spacer tubes (which of course are not plated inside their hole) rust together.  Still it was worth a look while i was here  . . .

P1400121s.JPG.5218b52b2ba26b456182fa6c554733b9.JPG

^ I reasoned that with the jack supporting under the wishbones, that lower trunnion would only be bearing the weight of the hub and brake. 

Out with the split-pin & off with the nut. . .

P1400123s.jpg.2114fcae0a11af5c54a844abe76f5f94.jpg

They came off easy enough, the nylon bush and its inner dust seal are in my hand.  However even with copious amounts of penetrating oil squirted into and around the steel sleeve (red arrow) and the castle nut ..put back on upside-down so I could hammer the end of the bolt - it wasn't going to shift.  The trunnion is doing its job for now, and there's no discernible slack ..so there's no urgency to battle with it.   NB. Despite appearance I'm not actually looking for work, I'm just trying to get the car in a fit state and on the road.

Anyway, for now I flooded the bolt and steel sleeve with more penetrating oil, and quickly put the bush, dust seal, the thick washer and the nut with its split pin all back together again.  It can stay like that until those bushes need attention.  At that time ..who knows, the penetrating oil might have soaked in and tilt the forthcoming battle in my favour..   Always the optimist huh Pete 

And finally for tonight, the hole next to the grease nipple in the top ball joint . . .

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^ I simply swapped the nylon washer that was on there for a stainless steel one which likewise covers the hole, after having degreased it and a blob of CT1.  It'll not leak again.

I'll come back to do the greasing and oiling (of the steering trunnion) tomorrow.  It's time for a cuppa !

 

..oh., just a quick one . . .

P1400127s.JPG.ba3f25869e9a4fa24ddaf392669adaf7.JPG

^ The hub next to the cap is bright and shiny from where it's been cut back with a grinder.  I hadn't noticed it on the other side as that was smeared over in black grease.  Anyone know why this was done ?  anything to do with someone fitting wire-wheel adapters ?

cheers,

Pete

 

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Just finishing up on the offside front suspension this morning. . .

P1400129s.JPG.76de5a3a852153c917b12060e468d145.JPG

^ for the time being, I've also sealed over the tears in the steering rack gaiter, with CT1.  Their replacement is still on the job list, but again this 'fix' moves them down the priority list. 

P1400130s.JPG.974c4f466aeb93a77caf6e7e537d643a.JPG

^ oozing after a liberal dose of gear-oiling in the steering trunnion. Also greased of the top ball joint and the track rod end (now that the CT1 has re-sealed it rubber boot).  So those are a few more tasks off the everyday-maintenance check list. 

P1400131s.thumb.JPG.cb033093147391b512259ec7bd7aadc1.JPG    P1400132s.JPG.f30c136fbf5094fb609b001afa37766f.JPG

^ And then I finished up with wire brushing off the flaky paint & surface rust, then splash some paint around, and some copaslip over thread ends and the flexi brake-pipe brackets.  Time to move on. 

I think I'll next go back to the rear LHS corner ..to do Marco's handbrake cable mod. I liked that. 

In the meantime, this afternoon, I was supposed to be getting a Honda 125 running for my ex-neighbours grandson ..who I gather wants to sell it.  I used to have a Honda CB125 and thought it a great bike, so if this one was a sensible price then it would be handy as a run around.  Alas, no-one was in and the bike wasn't there. Another time perhaps.

That's it for now, so I'll bid you all a good weekend.

Pete.

 

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Good evenenig Pete,

sorry me so much, I'm afraid you have to do much more on this car than you can think.

Just a few points I noticed only from your photos, PLEASE show us more, perhaps others also notice something.

- looking through the dust shield of your brake discs: the discs look rusty and perhaps grooved "inside", please have new ones in your mind

- to get the slack nut of the "steering link" real tight the wheel hub has to be off, don't ask me why I know

- looking at your last photo your brake pads are down, and they are different down

- from the not compressed seal above the trunnion and the position of the steering stop it could be possible the trunnion is one turn less on the vertical link as possible

To get the trunnion complete in the vertical link (1 turn more) the adapter for the calipers has to be off from the vertical link.

Others may know what is correct, assemble it with or without the adapter on the vertical link, I did with the adater off.

Ciao, Marco

 

Edited by Z320
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2 hours ago, Z320 said:

- looking at your last photo your brake pads are down, and they are different down

Wow Marco,

I think you win the "Spot the difference " prize.

I looked it that photo before and didn't notice that.

Not just "Different", one seems 100% new, the other seems 99% old.

 

Charlie

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The play on the near side of the steering rack is currently controlled by a little nylon plug. Normally this is retained by the rack mount. Many of the rigid mounts don’t hold this so leaving a little play on the near side. The work around is a bit of neoprene held by a jubilee clip.

As for the EP90/grease in the trunnions I go for grease. Current ones have done over 75000 miles.  I had a Scimitar SE5a in the past and as I recall the workshop manual recommended LM grease.  As mentioned before the trunnions must be sealed if you use EP90.

 

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Some satisfying maintenance there, as others have seen, there's a bit more to go with the brakes, but one thing at a time!

Gareth

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The groove in the back of the disc is usually caused by the castle nut contacting the disc on full lock, its always good to get the flat of the nut parallel with the disc and make sure the split pin is in the vertical plane too. One pad worn more than the other probably points to one piston being seized as well. Oh and the little hole next to the grease nipple on the top ball joint is supposed to be there to allow excess grease out so you dont blow the gaiter off its fitment rim, hence the plastic washer under the nipple.

Stuart.

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Thanks Marco ..definitely worth checking. These were other photos taken to record what was what, LHS and RHS respectively. . .

P1400101s.JPG.30ed5c2f0eaefeefdc06fd566e09f28b.JPG    P1400139s.JPG.d9a7975766fc0943d856c4602bbb78e0.JPG

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^ 5 - 6mm left on each, and not overly unevenly worn.   Also I'd not  previously noted the car pulling to one side under braking. 

Both sides of the discs have very light surface rust from the car being parked outside (under a car cover during a wet spell) and not having turned a wheel since mid-September. The car is now inside a well ventilated poly-tunnel but that of course is still open to atmospheric humidity.  There is some scoring on the inside of the disc, which is consistent with normal wear and tear ..ie, it's picked up a stone or two over the past 20 years.  Those marks do not appear to be either new nor sharp edged.  There is not a wear rim or edge of wear on these discs and their thickness is pretty consistent ..so I'm happy to listen out and otherwise periodically check them over the next 75,000 miles. 

Unless in a controlled-dehumidified environment, lack of use of the car (in our climes) will accelerate brake pad wear and disc ..because of the surface rust.  I did however note a fair amount of brake dust on the freshly repainted wheels, after just 200+ miles, so I guess the pads ought to come out to ensure the caliper's are retracting smoothly.  

Might I ask what lubricant is used to prevent those from rusting &/or binding ?      

Thanks Stuart. That's a useful tip, and I've just checked that the flats of the castle nuts are near enough parallel to the disc.  The LHS is vertical, and the RHS split pin is perhaps 25-degrees off.. but is in no danger of rubbing against the disc on full lock.

As the little hole in the top cap of the ball joint was neat, I guessed it was a breather, but it seems that was old school practice, and now the onus is on the mechanic to not pump too much grease into the rubber boot.  As it was, it seemed as if the grease was going straight out of the hole rather than into the joint ..hence the reason I closed it off.  Perhaps once in a blue-moon that boot ought to be replaced and the grease cleaned out and renewed, but tbh., I can't see that a ball joint ..when suitably greased within a sealed rubber boot, is anything but maintenance free.

In the meantime, as Gareth says  . . . 

6 hours ago, Mk2 Chopper said:

one thing at a time!

 

Pete.

 

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Personally I think these TR's were pretty robust ..bearing in mind that most of what I'm dealing with on Katie,  is a consequence of five-and-a-half decades of use, deterioration with age of rubber parts and sealed-in lubricants, plus a fair dose of poor maintenance &/or mechanical empathy, and some very iffy parts.. she's survived surprisingly well for a UK car.

But sorta related.., I was reading this morning (Sunday morning in bed with a coffee and crumbs from toast n' chunky marmalade ) the following from August 1969  . . .

 

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Started today with opening presents .. no celebration, just some tools I thought best to invest in..

P1400147s.JPG.ae285b769b2918d8649dc46752c6dcdd.JPG

^ six-point A/F sockets with 3/8" drive ..for continuing work on the TR.  I've been using Koken's six-point Whitworth  sockets for some years now (including while professionally restoring 1950's Sunbeam motorcycles for a couple of years) and have been delighted with their quality. They're compact and easy to handle yet tough.  My Makita sockets are all 12-point (also 3/8 drive) and whilst excellent tools, six-point is very much better to avoiding rounded off bolt heads and nuts.

I also received an external rod / thread deburring tool, as recently discussed and recommended in this website's topic on 'Modified and fabricated tools - Show & Tell . . .'

  P1400149s.JPG.ec50dfc3bba234a963e414d0879250ea.JPG

^ Big box, little package. 

Otherwise today was very much..  same ol', same ol'.   In-so-much as I decided to check the rear RHS brake adjustment, which previously I had assumed  was good to go ..with the car having just come back from a chassis swap.  I also wanted to further my greasing schedule ..so the half-shaft had to come out to get to the outer UJ.  And then pleased with the improvement to the LHS rear, I also wanted to fit Marco's handbrake cable run spacer.   All in just a ten minute job then. . . 

P1400155s.JPG.adafadd8bf5f8f953c4f9d5eabc7eeca.JPG

^ despite Copaslip copiously slapped all over it, the handbrake adjuster nuts were seized on to the rusty thread.  Just undoing and cleaning up this cable end took 45 minutes.  The pin connecting it to the lever arm was again a threaded bolt, which I've now changed to a set screw with a suitably long plain shank.

I then had call to use my new external deburring tool today for the first time, in cutting the thread of Marco's handbrake cables spacer to suit the thickness of my car's trailing-arm casting. . .

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^ measured, cut to length and deburred / chamfered. The tool needed a little care to centre and isn't as smooth a finish as the linisher I'd normally use, but my cordless drill is always to hand and so it was quicker than getting another power-tool out. 

 

I disconnected the rear wheel hub and pulled the half-shaft out. This is the first time I'd touched this side and so was anxious as to whether I'd find another stripped thread in this swinging arm. Thankfully not and so all went well.  However this grease nipple was also bent and split . . .

P1400162s.JPG.fcf3b52e262b2e4f87c9a273081e158f.JPG

^ When the outer   UJ is cranked over (perhaps while the springs were being changed and the trailing-arm was lowered to full rebound) the UJ's forks foul the extended nipple ..and bend and crack it.  This has happened, on this car, on both sides ..whereas its inner UJ's long grease nipples were undamaged, even when disconnected and the UJ is cranked right the way over they are just about clear. The half-shaft's inner UJ forks are rounder and have wider gaps than those of the outer UJ's.

P1400163s.JPG.8b5c2ef79890718f6bdfc12f63910cea.JPG

^ I didn't have a normal (shorter) nipple to hand, so for this outer UJ, I've borrowed another extended nipple to do the greasing. And then I removed it and fitted a set-screw to blank the hole.  I'm learning ..slowly   :unsure:

 

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^ not only was the cable's adjustment seized, but so was the adjuster in the brake itself.  Penetrating oil wasn't enough to sweat the adjuster loose so I resorted to a little heat.  Then it only took a minute before it started to move, and then getting the adjuster out and cleaning it up was easy-peasy.   Copaslip then liberally applied to its thread, with heavy grease inside the adjuster.

Moving on to reassembly . . .

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^ the hub was refitted with new nyloc nuts.    I have noted that the brake shoes only have 2-1/2 to 3mm of thickness left on them.

Tip to anyone who doesn't know.. if you can thread a nyloc down a clean thread without using a ratchet, then it's already way-past time to replace it.

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^ That's it, those tasks have now also been checked-off in this corner.  Marco's spacer block can just about be seen under the handbrake cable stop and the cable's run looks good and true.  Shame on Triumph for not casting such a height block into the swinging arm. Thanks again Marco for those B)   

With it lubricated and correctly adjusted.. the handbrake lever inside the car has possibly half-the-angle of lift than it had before.

I think for tomorrow.. I might not crawl under the car !   . . . yippee  :P

 

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Some great work there, and now you know the state of that corner, which is a lot better than when you started. 

Gareth

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Couple of points Pete.

1. Never re-use nylocks, theyre not expensive and its not properly safe to re-use.

2. The hand brake cable clevis where it attaches to the handbrake lever through the back plate should always have a clevis pin through it, secured with a split pin not a nut and bolt.

Stuart.

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On 11/16/2021 at 6:28 AM, Mk2 Chopper said:

a lot better than when you started

Thanks Gareth,  by coincidence I thought the same ..for the first time last night as I packed tools away.  With each corner now checked I'm at last beginning to feel that the car is moving towards becoming usable.

 

Thanks Stuart, 

Those rear-wheel-hubs nuts have now been replaced for new on both sides.  I must admit though, I was surprised to see nylocs used here as I know brakes can sometimes get really hot, and so I assume the hubs might also.?   Tbh. I prefer wide rectangular lock washers and Loctite anyway.

However where fitted, I do like to swap nylocs, in the more critical locations, for new.  I do frequently reuse nylocs ..in non-critical places, but in doing so I'm feeling for how tight they wind onto a fine-wire brushed / cleaned thread.  Accordingly, I don't recall ever having one work loose.  Part of the reason for such frugality is convenience, insomuch as I live in an apartment and don't keep much of a stock of new nylocs, of all sizes, metric, UNF & C, and BSF & C, for the vehicles I have.  Only the more usual sizes.  

The set screw pin and nut I used on this handbrake-lever is from a motorcycle front brake lever-arm.  It has a long plain shank and very short thread. It used to be common practice to do so, but certainly a clevis pin with split pin is perhaps easier because it is less length critical.  Anyone who puts an all-threaded bolt in a pivot is simply  encouraging premature wear.

Cheers.     Pete

 

 

Edited by Bfg
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31 minutes ago, Bfg said:

The ancient nylocs on the rear-wheel-hubs were refitted by M&T.  I know because they had the hubs off to swap out the wheel studs when I reverted from wire wheels to pressed steel.  Those nuts have now been replaced for new on both sides.  I must admit though, I was surprised to see nylocs used here as I know brakes can sometimes get really hot, and so I assume the hubs might also.?   Tbh. I prefer wide rectangular lock washers and Loctite anyway.

 

Cheers.     Pete

Nylocs have been used for hub attachment on these cars from new and are more accurate for applying torque figures too (Which is extremely important in the case of the hub attachments at their low torque of 16lbs) Also Loctite applied to nuts here is inappropriate as when removing them you would stand a very high chance of the studs coming out which is the last thing you need.

Stuart.

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