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14 hours ago, Lebro said:

All of which makes me very glad that I have a solid back axle :P

Bob.

There's a whole lot to be said for keeping things simple.. like when tuning a single carb -v- a pair of twin-choke Webers  ;)

 

I specifically chose the IRS derivative of the TR4 because I can feel and appreciate its difference in everyday driving ..And once set up correctly (during restoration) it'll need no further adjustment for countless years  ..well at least until the chassis sags in the middle and the wheel's camber angle tilts in.!   Aside from the lubrication of half-shaft joints, most IRS owners never touch their car's rear suspension.  It's very simple and yet a little more refined than a cart. :P

 

You might also like to bear in mind the following . . .

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B)  Pete

 

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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FWIW you should use proper sized poly insulators, the fronts and rears are totally different sizes and should never be mixed as they will as you see squeeze out, I use the Super Flex ones in either standard or thick versions https://www.superflex.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SF378-1028K https://www.superflex.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SF378-1028%2B5K https://www.superflex.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SF378-2327K https://www.superflex.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=SF378-2327%2B5K There is also this shim available to help with adjustment too.https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/spacer-rear-spring-aluminium-0431-mm675-065.html?assoc=130981

Stuart.

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Thanks Stuart ..but I don't see 5mm thinner than standard  to lower the ride height, which is what I required.   And are the shorter springs for the TR4A-TR6 not much stiffer. if i recall something like 390 or 420lb, versus the original spec of 280lb for the 4A ?

Pete. 

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5 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Thanks Stuart ..but I don't see 5mm thinner than standard  to lower the ride height, which is what I required.   And are the shorter springs for the TR4A-TR6 not much stiffer. if i recall something like 390 or 420lb, versus the original spec of 280lb for the 4A ?

Pete. 

Original 280 are way too soft which is why they were uprated with the 5 on, springs are available in all sorts of heights and rates and its always a lottery if your trying to sort ride height with s/hand or worn springs as you have noticed.

Stuart.

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Hi Pete,

sorry me, I did not read your very long text - too long for me.

You drove already some miles with your TR4A.

And did you try to avoid driving on street bumps and gully covers?
Always with your eyes 100 m in front of you on the road?

Very simple: than you know what spring rate you need / can bear.

Ciao, Marco

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On 10/13/2021 at 10:20 AM, stuart said:

Original 280 are way too soft which is why they were uprated with the 5 on, springs are available in all sorts of heights and rates and its always a lottery if your trying to sort ride height with s/hand or worn springs as you have noticed.

Stuart.

Is that a personal observation Stuart ?  I only ask because the road-tests on the TR4A appear to be few and far between, but those I've read do say it is a softer (more comfortable) ride ..in comparison with the earlier TR's and the live axle TR4, but to my reading do not suggest that's a problem, aside from when grounding was noted at MIRA on the pavé.

The original springs were shorter and had spacers (according to Mr Piggott's excellent book) and some time into production they were changed to longer springs with no spacer. But there is no mention of the longer springs being stiffer.  The TR5's front and rear spring rates were increased, in part because of the car's extra weight but also to counter the tendency for the more powerful car to squat under acceleration and in doing so to drag its exhaust.  The TR6 rear springs were further stiffened, possibly because of the longer body was heavier or offered more boot space ? &/or as engine power and its torque further increased.  

Although a tired TR4A may squat, I'm not sure it is a problem.

Pete   

 

 

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On 10/13/2021 at 11:51 AM, Z320 said:

Hi Pete,

You drove already some miles with your TR4A. And did you try to avoid driving on street bumps and gully covers?  Always with your eyes 100 m in front of you on the road? Very simple: then you know what spring rate you need / can bear.

Ciao, Marco

Indeed true.,  I have no problem with the spring rate Marco ..either before the chassis was swapped (as also were the coil springs) or afterwards.  I wouldn't want stiffer.  And I'm also happy with the lever spring dampers, save one link arm's rubber squeaks a little in its socket.  My efforts have simply been to correct the excessive ride height and positive camber on the rear wheels. 

Pete.    

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9 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Is that a personal observation Stuart ?  I only ask because the road-tests on the TR4A appear to be few and far between, but those I've read from the US do not say so.  The original springs were shorter and had spacers (according to Mr Piggott's excellent book) and some time into production they were changed to longer springs with no spacer. But there is no mention of the longer springs being stiffer.  The TR5's front and spring rate was increased, in part because of the car's extra weight but also to counter the tendency to squat under acceleration and in doing so to drag its exhaust ..which was a direct a direct consequence of a lot more torque from its engine. The TR6 was further stiffened, possibly because of the longer body offered more boot space ? and/or as engine power and torque further increased.  

Although a tired TR4A's may squat, I don't recall reading anything about it in the original press reports.

Pete   

Basically yes as I used to have a 4a a long time ago and that would drag its rear silencer on bumpy roads when touring and you`re mixing up front and rear springs with regards to spacers Im afraid, I will also refer you to the notes on the Moss parts page regarding rear spring rates. https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/road-spring-set-rear-standard-350lbs-silicon-chrome-pair-216275pr.html?assoc=118721

Stuart.

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44 minutes ago, Bfg said:

I have no problem with the spring rate Marco ..either before the chassis was swapped (as also were the coil springs) or afterwards.  I wouldn't want stiffer.  And I'm also happy with the lever spring dampers, save one link arm's rubber squeaks a little in its socket.  My efforts have simply been to correct the excessive ride height and positive camber on the rear wheels. 

Pete.    

„Naturally“ the TRs are not that low as we are used to it from modern cars today.

Don't go too low, you are quickly on the bump stop. And same [mm] to high on the rear safes fuel!

You always drive downhill. :huh:

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On 10/13/2021 at 4:53 PM, Z320 said:

„Naturally“ the TRs are not that low as we are used to it from modern cars today.

Don't go too low, you are quickly on the bump stop. And same [mm] to high on the rear safes fuel!

You always drive downhill. :huh:

The original spec is for a 6" (152mm) ground clearance, mine is measuring 5-3/4" (146mm).  I'm very happy with that. 

"too high on the rear saves fuel !  ..you always drive downhill. "  :D funny man

 

 

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Back on the job.,  albeit slowly ..well even more slowly than usual ! <_<

Yesterday, while the car was still unmoved, on the ground, and level I checked the front wheels were straight (tight cord again) and checked the ride height and camber of the front suspension.  the check was both from the wheel centre to the arch and again under the chassis.  I did this three times with no weight in the car, the 68kg in either seat, and then finally with the 104kg in the driver's seat only.  Bottom line is that the LHS is 10mm high (as the rear LHS was previously) but otherwise the camber on either wheel was good to go. B)  Sometime in the future I'll borrow a spring compressor and swap out the coli spring collars on the LHS but otherwise leave it as it is.  

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Final job on the suspension then (..for the time being) was to lift the car back onto the ramps, load it up again with the bricks so that I might tighten the trailing-arm / poly-bush bolts up underneath. While at it to check the tightness of the half shafts and the flexi-brake pipe clips, etc..

Moving on.., there were a number of jobs to be address under the car. . .

  • Firstly to grease the half shaft UJ's and the rear propshaft UJ.  The first grease nipple was snapped off.  I was very fortunate though insomuch as I managed to undo the broken off piece without dismantling again, by poking an Allen key in and turning it out with that.  I swapped it out with one from the half-shaft I'd previously replaced. Although it (the grease nipple) had a slight kink in it - I presumed that was to provide a better angle for greasing. But no It had been bent.. and so as I pinched that one up, it too sheered off level with the surface.  An Allen key didn't work to get that out, but by chance I had a Torx key which did the job.  With that removed I found one more grease nipple, in the yet to be replaced half-shaft. Job done. Two pumps of grease and the gun was empty !  Hey ho., of five UJ's, I managed to grease the two closer-to-the-diff ones and the rear of the prop-shaft. One outer UJ had no provision for greasing (sealed to destruction) and the other outer had a grease nipple that was impossible to get at, unless I removed the half shaft again.!  For the time being I've left it as I'll need to pull that half shaft out again anyway.

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^ Why did it have to be the one tucked up behind the exhaust pipe ?

..just a two minute job huh ! ?

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^ second grease nipple.  On the right of these photo is the correct long straight type of nipple with small spanner flats ..borrowed from the spare half-shaft.  

Other jobs while down under  . . .

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  • The brake pipe on one side would have been squashed under the bump stop, so that had to be moved aside a little. 

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  • The brake and the fuel pipe were only loosely secured by a cable tie ..where they went into the rear of the tunnel, and the fuel pipe's run would have also chafed on the chassis.  The cupronickel pipe was also buckled and I'm sure with vibration it would soon have cracked, so I'll want to replace it.  In the meantime, they needed 'adjusting', securing and preventing from chattering against each other or the chassis.   ^^ Note on the RHS of the second photo how the exhaust pipe is resting against the chassis gusset, and the way the T-shirt panel is bowed up in the middle. 

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  • The brake and fuel pipes further forward were clipped but still loose enough to rattle against each other &/or the chassis.  I've locally rubber sleeved and neoprene padded behind the pipes as necessary. The hard fuel pipe is joined at that corner with a short length of rubber hose, with no ethanol-resistant markings on it and no pipe clips.  I'll want to correct this sooner rather than later.  And yes there is a drip of fluid from the slave cylinder, which I'd asked to be done. The LHS sill repair is not pretty ..more on that in a future post.
  • I've taped over the holes in the side of the chassis rails (white PVC tape) to lessen water ingress. Those in the bottom are being left open for drainage.

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  • The chassis' underside T-shirt plate being pulled straighter.
  • The crossbox silencer mounts were adjusted (re-done), to raise it up and better support one side (..one bracket now surplus)

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  • The exhaust bracket and clamp under the gearbox was 'adjusted' (..also a clamp now surplus ..the car is getting lighter by the hour !).  A clamp was fitted at the front of the pipe (where it joins the double down-pipes) as that was missing. The second of those clamps is also missing and the old one is bent so I need to buy another.   

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^ when all was said n' done the pipe and silence are now secure ..and there's 1/4" clearance at its tightest spot.  You'll note in the top RH corner the brake pipe was very close to the exhaust. That too has been adjusted. 

While under I was also spotting the oil drips from the recently rebuilt gearbox (which was 99.5% oil tight beforehand)..

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^ Dripping even when the car is sitting unused does not please me.

So., progress is being made, but its slow because of my own post-op limitations and the fact that working under a car on 8" ramps is itself a slow business. All so many details though will simply take some time to work through. And there are many more yet. 

Pending the weather, more next week, perhaps,

Bidding you all a good weekend,

Pete

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  • 3 weeks later...

Sorry that I've been amiss in keeping things updated.. anyway here's a quick one . . .

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^ It was leaking just a little but it's not good when the radiator is half empty (..and that's not me being a pessimist ! ).

I feel rather grateful that it reluctantly came out, rather than shearing off (..as the water heater valve had), so then it was just a matter of cleaning it and the hole up, and putting it back in ..this time with a fibre washer rather than goo.

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^ Everything cleaned up fine, and was greased, but it strikes me as odd that the 'open to drain' hole isn't in line with the lever.. That's just so counter-intuitive to me.

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^ with the lever in this position - the drain is closed.  Hey ho.,  what do I know ! ?   ..but that it ain't that way with my boat's sea-cocks. 

Anyways up., another little job ticked off the scroll.

Pete

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Pete,

Do you really need a tap on the engine block?   That will always be prone to leaks.

Later cars just had a threaded plug, which can carry sealing washers and have the thread sealed.   That won't leak, but can be removed to drain the block if and when you want to do that, whwich in most hands will be very rarely.

JOhn

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Having done that I discovered the car's battery was no longer charging. . .

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^ Tested it and the output was 1-volt at tick-over.  Should be around 14 - 15v.   Mssr Haynes proposes its field windings are culprit,  so I took it off and opened it up to have a look see. . .  

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^ One of the brush springs is very weak and so a lack of good contact is possibly why it's stopped working right now. but those copper coloured filings are from the plain bush, the other end bear doesn't feel too tight either.   Undoubtedly it could be refurbished with new plain-bushes, etc., but the rest of it doesn't look too bright ...so I placed an ad on the TSSC (Triumph Sports Six Club) forum and again here on the TR forum to see if anyone happen to have one on the shelf that'll fit.

I was very fortunate insomuch as Lebro (Bob) had a couple sitting on the shelf.  One with a wide fan-belt pulley and the other with a narrow belt pulley. Very kindly one would be mine for the cost of postage. That was incredibly generous of him ... Excellent man !  I believe he's swapped to an alternator on his car.   It seems as if that's the way many TR owners go, possibly because they don't like the wide belt.  Personally I sorta prefer it ..as it can be run very loose and still not slip, and that of course puts less load on the water pump bearings. 

In the meantime I got on with putting up a better cover over the patio, where Katie  is parked and worked on..

Pete

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Out with the old.., but first the frame was extended from the 10ft x 8ft gazebo to the trellised bench seat with honeysuckle growing over it. 

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^ in with the new

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Gazebo ?  car port ?  garage ?  conservatory ?   yep.. all of the fore-mentioned. 

 

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7 minutes ago, john.r.davies said:

Pete,

Do you really need a tap on the engine block?   That will always be prone to leaks.

Later cars just had a threaded plug, which can carry sealing washers and have the thread sealed.   That won't leak, but can be removed to drain the block if and when you want to do that, which in most hands will be very rarely.

JOhn

Nope, I don't need one, and never have I drained a car's block down to prevent winter freeze up ..

It's what I had, and even though this one now does drain - it now doesn't drip, so it is good to carry on serving its purpose for the next xx years.  B)

Pete

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^ Looking rather forlorn, the parcel from Bob arrive safely, albeit having been delivered to the wrong address first.

Great weather for working out in my new polytunnel, so I opened the parcel today . . .

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^ Katie's  old dynamo (left) is a 22704H and the one from Bob is a 22700.   Very slight difference as you can see in field-winding case. but overall the brackets and pulley wheel offset are the same and so the two are interchangeable. 

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^ again slight variation but nothing much to write about   ..undoubtedly to Marco's approval !

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^ As a matter of course I opened it up to check the brushes, their springs and to lubricate the plain-bushes.  All looking used but good.  The brushes were fine, as were their springs. The bushes are little worn but serviceable for next 100,000 miles.   I'll most likely replace the bushes and springs in Katie's  old dynamo to see if that's why it stopped working, so while at it I'll get a spare pair of bushes for this one.

Lubrication of those bushes is a bit hit and miss.  In the third photo you'll see that there is a hole in the end for oil.  inside this is felt pad to hold the oil and then a metal plate to keep the felt in place.   On the TR4 / 4A the exhaust down-pipe is close behind the dynamo and so I'm not sure how one is supposed to get in there to oil it, and if one did then how to gauge how much oil is going in.  I did this one by sitting the end cap facing up and filling the bush with oil until it dribbled out through the felt and the oiling hole.  I think it's worth taking the dynamo off every 25,000 miles to lubricate it.  It wouldn't take long to do so.  

I didn't dismantle the pulley wheel off the front of the dynamo, but I'm thinking the bush at that end is similarly lubricated by oil in felt. I don't see a lubrication point though.  With the field windings lifted off the armature, I could see grease had squeezed out of it. so I cleaned that away (not doing anything anyway) and stood the dynamo on end and used used a small paintbrush to apply oil around that bush so that it ran down into it.   I hope my presumption that there's a felt pad in there is correct.

Anyway after a bit of cleaning, a good go at lubrication, a light burnishing of the armature's brush contacts ..and my tarting it up to look pretty . . .

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^ looking good for a 60 year old,  well better than I'm faring anyway   

p.s. Anyone know what are the three tapered lugs on the fan-belt pulley for ?  I might only guess for winding the dynamo up to speed when testing, but as far as I can think of.. nothing else has this sort of built-in test feature.  So perhaps there is a tool to engage with those to help fitting the fan belt, sort-of-like a tyre fitting lever ?  If so, I don't recall ever seeing one being used.

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^ Job done.  The bolt  for the adjuster was a different thread than Katie's previous, but all is now back together and suitably (very loosely) tensioned.  As before the red warning light comes on at tick-over speeds but soon goes out when revved even just a little.  

BIG THANKS  to Bob for helping me out with this.  I owe you Sir.

Pete.

 

p.p.s.. If you happen to build an almost closed polytunnel or similar over your patio ..remember to first close the patio door before you start the car from cold.  Exhaust fumes in the house are not clever.   

 

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A good update there Pete. Liking your new poly tunnel, is it noisy in the wind? 

I bet those dynamos will go on forever with the barest of maintenance.

Gareth

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3 hours ago, Z320 said:

"a slight variation but nothing much to write about   ..undoubtedly to Marco's approval"

Did I miss something?

 ^ I was just jesting with you my friend ;) ..highlighting my tendency to write in too much detail,  and your . . .

 

On 10/13/2021 at 11:51 AM, Z320 said:

Hi Pete,

sorry me, I did not read your very long text - too long for me.

Ciao, Marco

B)

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Yes indeed, I already noticed you are using more photos, you got my explicit approval to go on this way!

This is how I oil my C40, no problem to go sidewards through the 4A exhaust manifold.

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Just pump out the air before, with the oil coming check how much you have to pull for some drops.

Bring the oil gun in position and here you go. Better you oil the rear bearing of the C40 one time more than one time less.

It still does a lovely job on my TR4A.

Ciao Marco

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On 11/3/2021 at 6:40 AM, Mk2 Chopper said:

A good update there Pete. Liking your new poly tunnel, is it noisy in the wind? 

Thanks Gareth,  Poly-tunnel is not as bad as one might imagine.  I particularly wanted to control it because My bedroom is next to it and there is another flat in the upstairs of this cottage.  So the cover is stretched and battened along each side, and then again along the house and the low side wall, so it doesn't tend to flap around like a tied-on tarp.  As gust pass by., the cover does get sucked up or blown down ..which is sorta like a soft plastic drum, but generally not too disturbing.  Heavy rain is very much more louder, and you can hear even the lightest of drizzle, but the latter is quite a pleasant patter.   Yesterday I took advantage of the calm and dry weather to finish off the entrance-end sheet (in similarly heavy duty black plastic - which is to prevent prying looks of anyone who might drive in and turn around).  I also laced the polythene's edge beam along the low side wall to a row of the heavy night-storage-radiator bricks ..for when the weather really does blow up a storm. 

Today was blustery and wet but the extended gazebo / poly-tunnel is doing a great job of keeping most of the wind n' wet out, so I could get on with the TR (Triumph's Recommissioning). . .

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^ Back to Katie s  rear suspension's  'other issues'

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^ while I remember it and have access to grease the outer UJ

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^ probably hasn't been disassembled and greased in many years, so although the adjuster turned easily enough, the two pistons were really very tight (ancient dried grease).  And as a consequence of someone having used the wrong size of spanner ..the 1/4" square adjuster end was chewed up.

[ Tip :  If you don't have the right tool to adjust these..  might I suggest you use a very small 1/4"-drive socket inverted over the square peg, and then use an Allen key in the nut-end of the socket.  It really is that simple and very compact tools to keep in your tool roll.  ]   

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^ to get the adjuster out I cut a screwdriver slot across its end.

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^ Not wanting to disconnect the hydraulics, and therefore have to later re-bleed the brakes, I hung the backing plate / brake assembly (less its adjuster) on a cord, and dropped the trailing arm out from underneath.  Btw., it's nice and easy to get the polybush bolts out.. having slightly slotted one bolt hole in each bracket so the bracket's pivot axis are now in line (ie. without twist in each polybush). 

Of course, short daylight hours, combined with starting into the job late in the day, means working in the shadows.   I've brought some LED lamps home from the container so tomorrow I'll be rigging those up in the gazebo.

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^ That's off and ready to be repaired or replaced.  Removing it took a little less than an hour and a half from start to finish ..working at my usual casual pace.  Aside from the brake adjuster, one of the studs which hold the wheel-hub has stripped out and also there's a crack in the underside flange (see below).  The first two I could deal with in situ., but if I am to have the arm welded then it had to come off. . .

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^ Seems as if the prior owner, the TR specialist who swapped the chassis ..and the MOT man missed this crack in the trailing-arm casting.  That's a sad state of affairs  ..another one to look out for gents.!

Whether it is coincidence, just a wear n' tear thing, or they are related - I can't say, but this side / the offside of the car had been T-boned (while driven by the previous owner).  It was professionally repaired with another door, sill and possibly other panels. I replaced the half-shaft because the sliding spline was clonking. The wheel bearing was also loose, and then I found one or two of the studs holding the wheel's hub on were stripped.  While underneath, setting the rear suspension camber & ride height, I spotted this crack, but wanted to get that job done before being diverted by these 'other issues'.     

Spoke to my friend Rich earlier in the day, as he had mentioned he had a couple of odd trailing arms, but wasn't sure which side they were from. And it turns out that I'm in luck and he has the offside B)  so I'll swap this trailing arm out for one that has already been refurbished.   I will of course need to swap the polybushes over from one to the other, which ought to be interesting as I've never done that before.  :rolleyes:

Bidding you a good evening

Pete

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I've never taken the trailing arm off, but I'm guessing (assuming all the bolts come undone) it's fairly straightforward?

Seems like a nicer place than I have to work on mine, generally outside. 

Good spot on the crack and even better that your mate has a decent replacement arm. 

Gareth

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On 11/5/2021 at 11:43 AM, Mk2 Chopper said:

I've never taken the trailing arm off, but I'm guessing (assuming all the bolts come undone) it's fairly straightforward?

Seems like a nicer place than I have to work on mine, generally outside. 

Good spot on the crack and even better that your mate has a decent replacement arm. 

Gareth

Yep not too difficult to remove an arm, as long as the bolts all come out OK ..which is why I'm and advocate of Copaslip type anti-seize greases.  As you can see from the above sequence, the half-shaft was disconnected from the diff, and the hub was undone and that was extracted. The damper and coil spring needs to be released, and the brake assembly lifted off.  Some owners have their polybush pivot bolts fitted the other way around, so then the chassis mounting brackets have to be removed as well.  That would have annoyed me. 

The gazebo extended to now be a polytunnel is much better than laying down on the seemingly always wet ground.  Motivation before was a struggle. Now it's just cool rather than wet.!  As an enclosure it is also great because I can leave tools, wooden blocks, workmate, power leads out etc., as well as not having to unravel a car cover all the time. all together at both ends of the day - it probably saves an hour a day. 

Indeed we're very fortunate around here (Essex / Suffolk) that Rich, has his own cars (TR4's / 4A's) for restoration and so buys bits for those ..and then to get a better deal on professional refurbishing services, has a few more done.. which are then there to help out his fellow club members.  It's really very good of him.

I landed on my feet when I met him. B)

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