That was a year that was..

[Bfg]

18 hours ago, Z320 said:

Sorry me,

I can grease my outer UJs with a special grease gun adapter,

for this extra short grease nipples are fitted.

Ciao, Marco

Thanks Marco, I like that.  Unfortunately it wouldn't work on my car unless I reversed the UJ in the forks ..to have its nipple's tilt towards the centre of the car.  As they are at the moment, the nipples are tilted towards the hub, ie., are inside the tunnel.  Possibly that's why they've also got bent.   If the UJ's were reversed then perhaps 45-deg nipples would be reachable anyway ?

Pete.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

20 hours ago, Bfg said:

Thanks Gareth,  by coincidence I thought the same ..for the first time last night as I packed tools away.  With each corner now checked I'm at last beginning to feel that the car is moving towards becoming usable.

 

Thanks Stuart, 

The ancient nylocs on the rear-wheel-hubs were refitted by M&T.  I know because they had the hubs off to swap out the wheel studs when I reverted from wire wheels to pressed steel.  Those nuts have now been replaced for new on both sides.  I must admit though, I was surprised to see nylocs used here as I know brakes can sometimes get really hot, and so I assume the hubs might also.?   Tbh. I prefer wide rectangular lock washers and Loctite anyway.

However where fitted, I do like to swap nylocs, in the more critical locations, for new.  I do frequently reuse nylocs ..in non-critical places, but in doing so I'm feeling for how tight they wind onto a fine-wire brushed / cleaned thread.  Accordingly, I don't recall ever having one work loose.  Part of the reason for such frugality is convenience, insomuch as I live in an apartment and don't keep much of a stock of new nylocs, of all sizes, metric, UNF & C, and BSF & C, for the vehicles I have.  Only the more usual sizes.  

The set screw pin and nut I used on this handbrake-lever is from a motorcycle front brake lever-arm.  It has a long plain shank and very short thread. It used to be common practice to do so, but certainly a clevis pin with split pin is perhaps easier because it is less length critical.  Anyone who puts an all-threaded bolt in a pivot is simply  encouraging premature wear.

Cheers.     Pete

Years ago I recall a TR handbrake being failed on a MOT test for having a new aircraft grade bolt and nyloc instead of a Clevis pin and split pin attaching the main cable to the compensator.

The testers response when challenged was

“You might know that bolt came from aircraft stock and has a special long shank with minimal thread and is made from special steel. I don’t.  A clevis pin is made for the purpose and when I see it fitted with a split pin I trust it to be the correct thing for the job. Change it and I’ll pass it.”

Peter W

[stuart]

47 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Years ago I recall a TR handbrake being failed on a MOT test for having a new aircraft grade bolt and nyloc instead of a Clevis pin and split pin attaching the main cable to the compensator.

The testers response when challenged was

“You might know that bolt came from aircraft stock and has a special long shank with minimal thread and is made from special steel. I don’t.  A clevis pin is made for the purpose and when I see it fitted with a split pin I trust it to be the correct thing for the job. Change it and I’ll pass it.”

Peter W

My tester who is old school would tell you exactly the same, Clevis pins are made for exactly that job.

Stuart.

[Bfg]

4 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

“You might know that bolt came from aircraft stock and has a special long shank with minimal thread and is made from special steel. I don’t.  A clevis pin is made for the purpose and when I see it fitted with a split pin I trust it to be the correct thing for the job. Change it and I’ll pass it.”

Peter W

Valid point, thanks.

[john.r.davies]

IMHO that is a technician's answer.   I've seen bolts criticised because the fastened joint was intended to.move and the bolt threads could wear, either way.   But an engineer could say that a shanked bolt, so that the nut closed up the right amount and only exposed shank, could not be criticised that way.

So why not use such a bolt?

John

[Charlie D]

In the past I’ve cut the threaded part off a bolt of the correct diameter, drilled a hole and used a washer and a split pin. I didn’t do it to be a smart ass; I did it because it’s all I had at the time.
I wonder how that stands against a clevis pin. If I’d rounded off the hex head, would anyone know the difference? (And would it be any less safe?)

Charlie.

[stuart]

3 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Correct but then getting an MOT is down to that technician.  As an engineer, I might assess an appropriate alternative, but what does the MOT tester know of my training and subsequent experience.?  He's certainly not going to take the bolt out to check it's plain shank and high tensile specification.  Each MOT tester has seen so many fudges and heard more bull from owners ..that by far their most reliable answer is to 'follow the book'.   Their job is to help us keep our vehicles safe, both for our own sake and for the sake of anyone else on the road and along the pavements.  As such - it is an honourable profession. 

We the customer are the cause of their skepticism, more often because it is inconvenient  to us or may have cost us a few more pence.!  

I openly criticise the MOT tester ;  A.T.Perks - 54000 Seisdon Garage, Wolverhampton  ..because he turned a blind eye to a long list of things wrong with my TR.  Mark the proprietor of M&T Classics wanted an individual assessment of the car before he gave it back to me ..because he accepts that any man, including an employees, might just be fallible ..and so wanted this double-check.  Likewise, I paid good money for the car to be inspected according to the practices laid down by the DoT, again for the reassurance that the car would be roadworthy. Mr.Perks failed to do his job, and as far as I'm concerned brought his garage and his own family name into disrepute.   

Why ? perhaps because he was a buddy of the mechanic (a sub-contractor of M&T's) and wanted to not expose his mate's shoddy workmanship.?  As it happens, I have had a very lengthy conversation with Mark about mechanical malpractice and the bodged things I found over the past two months.  He agrees that irrespective of my limited budget, these things should have been dealt with or otherwise flagged.      

True, passing 'the Test' often comes down to the discretion of an individual MOT tester.  And sometimes their 'picking' can be flipping annoying. But the garage which I normally go to for my MOT (Cattermoles, Ipswich) is strict but sensible.  If they can spend a minute or two fixing something, like a bulb gone, or foggy perspex of a headlamp, then they do so.  It's part of their service and it encourages repeat business ..which has served them well for decades.  They have also spotted things that I'd not seen - for which I most grateful,  and then have been fair in their pricing of garage repair services. 

So, we can't have it both ways.  Either we value another pair of eyes ..those of an experienced mechanic, to check things are right, or we don't. 

Likewise we either value our vehicles being roadworthy, in the eyes of law, should we be involved in an accident, or we don't ? ..If not then we have to accept that our insurance company has good reason to get-out-of-payment. 

Pete.

 

 

 

If you have a genuine issue with a testing station then can I suggest that you report them to the relevant authority.

Stuart.

[Bfg]

On 11/15/2021 at 8:20 PM, Bfg said:

I think for tomorrow.. I might not crawl under the car !   . . . yippee 

Well that only sort of happened insomuch as I didn't work on the car at all on Tuesday, but on the other hand.. on Wednesday, the following day I did work on the car I found myself underneath again..

 

^ Seats & tunnel out, to address the leak from the recently rebuilt gearbox.  I've been here before when I first collected the car, because the overdrive stopped working. That was just a matter of the replacement overdrive solenoid's wire having a 3+mm (?) bullet being loose in the Lucas 4mm bullet connector.  That was odd because M&T had soldered new bullet connectors where some were loose to the headlamps.  But the gearbox and overdrive removal / refitting was done by a sub-contract mechanic (Keith) who apparently cares nothing  for his customer's business reputation.

You may recall from previous posts that the gearbox oil-leak delayed the car being ready for me to collect, and it was taken out again, returned to Klassic Transmissions, then refitted, then taken out again, and the overdrive was deemed to be at fault so that was replaced.  And yet as soon as I looked at the oil wash from high up the gearbox and down either side, it was apparent that the top cover was leaking.  That might have been the seal(s) from the selector rods, but because of the widespread slick of oil that scenario was unlikely.

Anyway while finding that electrical fault, I also noted the gearshift spring was fitted upside down in the cup ..which is why I was having difficulty changing gear, and the propshaft UJ bolts were loose.  Two of the four bolts I could tun in my fingers, the two others each took up by about 1/4 of a turn.  The oil leak, all down either side of the gearbox, was clearly coming from around the top cover.        

^ I'd also noted that this bolt was stripped out (wouldn't tighten) and as you can see it is different to the one nearer the front. It did have a spring washer under it but I removed that to try and get a pinch on the next thread down.  I couldn't do much else about it at the time, so corrected the solenoid wire and tightened the prop-shaft, with the intent to coming back to this before I drove the car much further.  Accordingly that's why I pulled out the interior (again) yesterday. 

 

^ as removed from the rear of the top cover

^ the two forward holes are stripped out for the most part, the bolts fitted were wrong / of fine thread. 

The spotlessly clean interior of the gearbox case reflects it having been just rebuild, a couple of month and some 200 miles ago,  ..no ?

^ aside from the stripped out thread to the right of the case, which similarly had a wrong (fine thread) bolt in it, the rear two  threaded holes are likewise mostly stripped out.    I understand that these bolts should be about 1/8" shorter than the front ones, and so they too were wrong (albeit of they are correct thread). One is an all-threaded bolt, which I suspect should have a plain shank like the other.

That's five of the eight threads which hold / seal this cover down are mostly stripped out, and similarly five of the eight bolts were incorrect.  Unfortunately, each of the bolt holes are through  the turned-inwards rim of the gearbox casing, so any broken threads or bits of aluminium drop straight into the gearbox.  And that gearbox oil is shared with the overdrive.  I can't have bits of swarf going into that.

The overdrive is a newly refurbished one ..thankfully that was not rebuilt by Klassic Transmissions, Wolverhampton, who did the gearbox.  But I do have to wonder whether replacing the overdrive was necessary ? ..when it was the gearbox leaking over everything.   

^ The underside of the top cover, as it was lifted off, reflecting both the amount of oil leaking passed it and a lump of displaced aluminium ..from where a screwdriver or some other butchery had been hammered in to prise the cover off.  It doesn't take much noddle to realise that this 1mm of ridge of crude would prevent that top cover sealing again on a thin paper gasket.

As an incentive to leak even more, the gearbox was over-filled by 1/2".  

^ Bottom line is that the gearbox has to come out for those threads to be repaired ..without risking of dropping swarf bits of metal inside.

NB., This is not M&T's fault, they did not rebuild the gearbox, they used sub-contractors both for teh rebuild and for its fitting.  Out of kindness Mark had offered, while the engine was out, to drop the gearbox off for me. He made no money out of doing that and has since been caught in the middle.  Btw., the gearbox rebuild was done because the lay-shaft bearings were noisy. Otherwise the engine and the gearbox were pleasantly oil-leak free beforehand. 

 

Pete

 

   

Edited November 18, 2021 by Bfg

[harlequin]

While investigating a similar oil leak on a friends gearbox I found that one of the 3 set screws for the selector detent springs that are on the underside of the top cover was sitting proud by about a millimeter, this ofcourse prevented the top cover sitting down flat on the gearbox.

Like youI also found one of the threads to be stripped, no doubt caused by someone's efforts to cure the leak by over tightening the bolts

George 

Edited November 18, 2021 by harlequin

[Bfg]

Thanks George ..those screws for selector detent are slightly below the surface on mine, but still I'd better check they are tight.

 

[Hamish]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

Thanks George ..those screws for selector detent are slightly below the surface on mine, but still I'd better check they are tight.

 

Not too tight. They have a function on the selector fork movement I think retaining a ball bearing that engages with the shaft. Thus an adjustable element and not a “ do it up tight screw”

[Bfg]

Thanks Hamish, that's good to know.

 

...it's all been done before, but briefly.. this is my taking the gearbox out on my own, despite my dubious back ..which tends not to bear well with twisting and lifting, particularly at the same time as stretching. . . 

^ From what I learnt in removing / refitting the gearbox to replace the clutch..  I cut a scrap piece of 3/4" plywood to aide doing this job on my own.   It's 22" x 14" wide, but for the last 10" which taper down (equally on either side) to 11" wide. This clears the chassis rail on the LHS and the exhaust pipe running down the RHS on my car.  Exhaust clamps are off the 2:1 downpipe connection and at that at the gearbox was loosened, so the engine might be tilted slightly up at the back.  The long 5-1/2" wide block of timber supported by the trolley jack, lifts under the very back end of the sump.  The cut piece of 3/4" ply sits on top of this, immediately behind the sump, and is the right thickness for the bellhousing to almost rest on. 

I'll check when I put the gearbox back in place whether the thickness is exactly right to align the gearbox shaft back into the clutch. 

The back of the engine, together with the gearbox, is lifted and tilts. Only a small lift is required, in fact just enough to align the top of the bellhousing to just below the rounded cutout of the body shell, under the battery tray. I'm sure when we remove the gearbox before, my helping mechanic was a little too enthusiastic in jacking it up (too much) and the bell-housing's flange then wouldn't come backwards through the bulkhead's cutout. 

Thereafter plywood makes it very easy to simply slide the gearbox back and inch or two off of the clutch spline. Only then, the back end of the gearbox can be lifted onto blocks inside the car . . .

^ The blocks inside the car are a bridge over the prop-shaft UJ., which wont drop lower without removal of the exhaust pipe. And I didn't want to disturb that any more.  The gearbox rubber mounting has been removed but the steel brace across the chassis is otherwise untouched (still bolted tightly to its chassis brackets).  Sliding the gearbox back on the piece of plywood is safe n' secure and low enough to clear the heater and dashboard. The heater flap has an Allen key lightly pinched in place of the control cable, to keep that flap closed.

 

^ Under the car, I added a support tower, just in case ..as a safeguard. But as the long timber plank was sandwiched between the sump and the jack, the top of this tower and that plank didn't actually touch, even as the gearbox was pulled back.  Btw., those blocks are mostly screwed together, so is more stable and robust than might first appear from this photo. 

^ next was another block which I lifted the clutch lever onto.  I'm very wary of pulling my back again ..and then being out of action for a month, so this maneuver was more a matter of rolling the gearbox over to the right hand side onto a block, and then sliding the bellhousing end across to the left, together with the lever arm over the lip of the floor. 

^ slid across on timber blocks.

^ sill / door seal rubber lifted off and another bridge placed to lift the back end of the gearbox onto. 

By then the gearbox was out of the car sufficiently to avoid stretching while lifting and so dragging the gearbox out and onto the backless-office-chair (covered in thick plastic) was easy. 

^ task done, with body and each finger intact...  Tbh it was far less drama lifting it out on my own, than with an enthusiastic professional helper.  Admittedly it took me 100 minutes, including making a cup of coffee, removing the top half of bellhousing bolts (the bottom ones I did yesterday evening), removing the starter motor, removing the gearbox mount, measuring and cutting the 3/4" plywood, positioning the trolley jack and in general being very careful. 

Having bought a UNC thread repair kit, specifically for this task (albeit I only expected to be doing one or perhaps two), tomorrow I hope to repair the five.  All being well, I'll collect the full set of (correct) top cover bolts next week.  That's not a problem as I hope to have the gearbox refitted over this weekend, and the cover can be loosely refitted until then.

Pete 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Bfg

[PodOne]

Hi Pete

Just a thought and too late now but I'd have tried repairing the threads in situ given the work involved pulling the box by covering the exposed gearing, plasticine/blue tack or thick grease to plug the bottoms retain the swarf in the bottom holes and used compressed air to blast the remains out from the bottom. You could use shorter bolts/screws so you don't need to tap as far down? which would have helped.

Andy

[Mk2 Chopper]

This is impressive Pete, I suffer with my lower back, and have to be so careful too. But I like the way you've made all these supports and ramps and bridges, and the backless office chair is genius as a trolley. 

It'll be interesting to see the thread repair kit in action. 

Gareth

[John Morrison]

2 hours ago, Mk2 Chopper said:

This is impressive Pete, I suffer with my lower back, and have to be so careful too. But I like the way you've made all these supports and ramps and bridges, and the backless office chair is genius as a trolley. 

It'll be interesting to see the thread repair kit in action. 

Gareth

I have followed Petes' thread from day one with both admiration and awe, but on this he is being foolhardy, and I'm afraid putting himself at risk.

Just my opinion of course, but these are heavy old gearboxes even harder to refit than remove, and one man,  and blocks of wood are not  a safe way forward, sorry.

John.

[John Morrison]

Pete you have a PM.

John

[Bfg]

12 hours ago, PodOne said:

Hi Pete

Just a thought and too late now but I'd have tried repairing the threads in situ given the work involved pulling the box by covering the exposed gearing, plasticine/blue tack or thick grease to plug the bottoms retain the swarf in the bottom holes and used compressed air to blast the remains out from the bottom. You could use shorter bolts/screws so you don't need to tap as far down? which would have helped.

Andy

Morning Andy,  I would have done the job in situ if it had just been the side or the front two..  but the rear two are very close to the gear underneath and with the gearbox still in the car - I couldn't get my head in to see what I would be doing regarding stopping bits falling inside. . .

^ where the head wont fit a camera gets in, under the dashboard, to take the photo facing backwards.  Each hole is through the flange and so reliably closing them off underneath to catch swarf would be nigh on impossible.   

As it is with the gearbox out, then I feel anxious but still happier than trying to do it in situ, and I'll also be better able to flush the gearbox out ..with less fear of simply washing any bits into the overdrive unit.

Short bolts wouldn't make any difference as the thread repair coil is the same length, and so too is the drilling and tapping for those. 

 

1 hour ago, Mk2 Chopper said:

This is impressive Pete, I suffer with my lower back, and have to be so careful too. But I like the way you've made all these supports and ramps and bridges, and the backless office chair is genius as a trolley. 

It'll be interesting to see the thread repair kit in action. 

Gareth

Thanks Gareth, I wasn't sure whether to post this at all  ..as lifting a gearbox out of a car has been discussed so many times before.  But I did so because I was sure there are others who might also be faced with doing the task on their own ..and were doubtful whether they could do it (safely).  They too may have a vulnerable back or otherwise not be a young n' agile mechanic, and then they too might only have a single jack for under the car and some off-cuts of wood to attempt it with. 

So, I'm particularly glad this post has left a positive impression..   The backless office chair is a god-send, which I used extensively when working on my motorcycles, but also when working around the car at a lower level, whether doing brakes or door winder mechanism. It came from an office skip.

Pete.

 

[Ian Vincent]

For those who doubt their ability to remove a gearbox singlehandedly and safely, there have been plenty of posts on the forum about gearbox cranes of various degrees of complexity.  I made my own based upon John Morrison's drawings and it took about a day  (and cost less than £25).  Removing and replacing the box (with overdrive) singlehanded was a doddle and the crane is dismantled and sitting at the back of my shed if I should ever have to do it again.

Rgds Ian

[Z320]

Also here, never again without a crane as shown at this forum

[Lebro]

2 hours ago, Bfg said:

 

Pete.

The bolts holding the overdrive to the adapter plate look way too short in this photo, hardly getting halfway through the nuts.

Is that the case or an optical illusion ?

Bob

Having looked at other photos, I can now see that they may be bolt heads, not nuts, but with a sunken centre !

Or are they studs , which are too short ?

Edited November 19, 2021 by Lebro

[boxofbits]

11 minutes ago, Lebro said:

Pete.

The bolts holding the overdrive to the adapter plate look way too short in this photo, hardly getting halfway through the nuts.

Is that the case or an optical illusion ?

Bob

Having looked at other photos, I can now see that they may be bolt heads, not nuts, but with a sunken centre !

Or are they studs , which are too short ?

I think they are or should be studs Bob, as there are two longer studs if you recall to pull the Overdrive onto the box/ adapter. But from the photo they do seem short. 

Kevin

[Bfg]

^ indeed the two shorter studs, across the top, have been wound in to poke out the back of the overdrive's flange, and so the thread remaining to fit the nuts on are too short.  Conversely the long threads one either side, which I understand are to guide and then pull the overdrive onto the back of the gearbox, have not been threaded all the way in.  But the other two, from what I can see externally are OK.  And two out of six is better than one out of eight screws being correct in the top cover !

[boxofbits]

14 minutes ago, Bfg said:

^ indeed the two shorter studs, across the top, have been wound in to poke out the back of the overdrive's flange, and so the thread remaining to fit the nuts on are too short.  Conversely the long threads one either side, which I understand are to guide and then pull the overdrive onto the back of the gearbox, have not been threaded all the way in.  But the other two, from what I can see externally are OK.  And two out of six is better than one out of eight screws being correct in the top cover !

Sounds like the shorter studs have been put in the wrong way round ?

Kevin

[boxofbits]

My Overdrive happens to be out at the moment. This is a photo of the stud and it doesn’t protrude from the back of the casing but is flush.

[Lebro]

Sounds like some remedial work needed there Pete.  You should be able to back the O/D unit off the plate without the two sets of splines moving out of alignment, just don't turn anything !  Hopefully you can back it of enough to adjust the studs (turn them around or whatever is needed).

On pulling the O/D back on to the plate make sure the pump plunger is sitting on the cam, You can get it there with a thin screwdriver at the appropriate point of tightening the nuts on the long studs.

Bob