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MikeThomas

XYY 332F - 250 posing as a 5

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Morning All

 

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1020816

 

I thought it best to start a new thread on this as the other thread FND 205F is getting full and for ease of reference.

 

Stuart & Roy, sorry to be a pain but could you copy and paste again please from the other thread? Your comments are always valued and important. :)

 

Anyone now just adding the registration number to a search engine will see this thread and the comments therein.

 

Best wishes to you all.

 

Mike ;)

Edited by MikeThomas

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There are now 4, yes FOUR cars just on Car & Classic being touted as TR5's, that started life as a TR250 (one being a TR4/TR4a from Greece)

 

Isn't it about time the TR Register started taking a PRO_ACTIVE role in trying to stop this, for the protection of the marque, and to gain some credibility in representing it's members, particularly the TR5 owners, otherwise we will end up with more rogue TR5's than original ones.

 

So far, no one with any clout seems to 'care' about these 'fake' TR5's, except just a few TR5 owners themselves.

 

The one quoted above...

 

The one in the other thread FND 205F

 

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C537478

 

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C534621

 

Michael.

Edited by mafield

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Isn't it about time the TR Register started taking a PRO_ACTIVE role in stopping this, for the protection of the marque, and to gain some credibility in representing it's members, particularly the TR5 owners, otherwise we will end up with more rogue TR5's than original ones.

 

Michael.

Unfortunately there already are a lot out there like it since the rise of 5 values its been a lucrative market.

Stuart.

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There are now 4, yes FOUR cars just on Car & Classic being touted as TR5's, that started life as a TR250 (one being a TR4/TR4a from Greece)

 

Isn't it about time the TR Register started taking a PRO_ACTIVE role in stopping this, for the protection of the marque, and to gain some credibility in representing it's members, particularly the TR5 owners, otherwise we will end up with more rogue TR5's than original ones.

 

Michael.

 

 

Totally agree with you Michael.

 

I understand Roger Ferris is the TR5 guy at the register. I'm new to the club with my 5, had it a year next month and just soaking up everything. I will speak to a few other 5 owners I know and see how we can approach Mr Ferris for the assistance we need.

 

Best wishes,

Mike ;)

Edited by MikeThomas

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perhaps you would be better pointing out the misrepresentation to the auction house in this instance , i do not think a reputable Auctioneer would intentionally mislead people.

graham

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There are now 4, yes FOUR cars just on Car & Classic being touted as TR5's, that started life as a TR250 (one being a TR4/TR4a from Greece)

 

Isn't it about time the TR Register started taking a PRO_ACTIVE role in trying to stop this, for the protection of the marque, and to gain some credibility in representing it's members, particularly the TR5 owners, otherwise we will end up with more rogue TR5's than original ones.

 

So far, no one with any clout seems to 'care' about these 'fake' TR5's, except just a few TR5 owners themselves.

 

The one quoted above...

 

The one in the other thread FND 205F

 

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C537478

 

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C534621

 

Michael.

Quite correct Michael,

 

perhaps we can persuade our own TR5 register to examine the records of all the current TR5s registered upon the Register database and confirm they were manufactured as actual TR5s and not TR4a/Tr250 models subsequently modified and sold on to the current unsuspecting owners, these parodies must not be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

Mick Richards

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It's all about money, this is fake Britain guys, buyer beware, if everyone spreads the word eg through classic car magazines etc what to look for on fakes and no one buys these fakes we can stop this fakery so that buyers don't get ripped off.

Edited by michaeldavis39

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I stand to be corrected but, haven't we a member on here that has something to do with a classic car mag who could or maybe able to help?

 

Dave

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Unfortunately there already are a lot out there like it since the rise of 5 values its been a lucrative market.

 

 

perhaps we can persuade our own TR5 register to examine the records of all the current TR5s registered upon the Register database and confirm they were manufactured as actual TR5s and not TR4a/Tr250 models subsequently modified and sold on to the current unsuspecting owners, these parodies must not be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

Put those two together, and it could put the cat amongst the pigeons :)

 

Change of Forum Title from "TR5/250 Forum" to "Something later than a TR4A but earlier than a TR6 Forum" :ph34r:

 

Alan

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I had e:mailed Roger Ferris mainly about the BST TR250 /5 car which was advertised and basically got this as a reply:

 

Hi Rex

Yes I am aware that there has been quite a lot of furore on the forum, although I am not sure what has sparked it, as this is hardly the

first time a 250 has been offered for sale as a 5.

I've included a piece in my next report but its really it is a case of Caveat Emptor

Regards Roger.

 

So it looks like Caveat Emptor then.

 

Rex

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If I were looking to buy a TR5 I would NOT be buying one based upon the scrappy knowledge I hold.

This sort of decision needs allocating to a trade expert with a good reputation for fair dealing and absolute first class knowledge who will stand behind his recommendation . Its the only way to buy what you think you are buying, a reasonable commission to your trade expert is your insurance.

 

Mick Richards

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Chassis number of XYY 332F CD8586L so about 8 from last of TR250s

 

Kevin

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Its quite obvious that people want to glean extra cash. That the only reason

All that needs doing is the the Register confirms if a car was/is a 5 or not then the rest is up to trading standards.

Fraud is Fraud. People who try to sell off something for what its not is a Fraudster.

In something like wine it doesnt matter weather you make it the same. Its not Champagne if it doesnt come from the defined Champagne reagion.

If it came out of the factory sticking a bit of Pi on it and some badges dont make it a Tr, it makes it a '5 Spec' then its up to the buyer to be aware.

But if professional bodies dont do their bit then there is no standard set and the body is worth very little as it cant be taken seriously.

I am sure there are also 3 times as many Tr8's out there as should be but an honest seller calls his a Trv8.

An honest seller should call his a Tr250PI more value and not misleading.

I for one believe the only thing to do is to form a 'TR posse' and publish the car here and everyone writes to the seller asking them to correct their add to avoid trading standards. ;)

I for one have no problem forming for instance a FaceBook group called is a TR and making it public to all, if the Register dont want to get involved for fear of advertising repercussions etc.

Simple I open a Facebook page you apply to join and then you publish the cars details with photo and copy of add. Then other members just chip in regards the car. Any wanting buyers can ask or look the car up there.

Anyway Look I have gone and done it as its more trouble explaining than doin.

Look up the facebook group 'TR Ringers'

You can join and flag any car you want to discuss which ever model.... OK?

Invite people in the know please to join as its the knowledge and flagging that will make the group.

If you dont like then name please go on the group and ask me to change.

You may not like FB ( its quite practical for a database) but you wont like people buying fake cars either.....

Tony

Edited by Rem18

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REM18 I've asked to join your new group.

 

It is obvious 'ringing' motors is just not down to 250s to a 5. That said the 5 owners seem to be making the most noise, as a result we just might just see some help from the TR Register? I say 'might' as I understand there will be an article in the next TR Register publication by Mr Ferris re 250s masquerading as 5s.

 

So until then..............I'm getting the 5 out for a blast and pinch myself that I am fortunate to be able to own such a beautiful, charismatic yet beast of an automobile.

 

Best wishes,

Mike ;)

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Thats the spirit Mike.

Also what about Tr8's and maybe even small mouthed Tr2's would they count?

If it takes off maybe we should make it a 'Ringers group' for other cars too not just Tr's?

REM18 I've asked to join your new group.

 

It is obvious 'ringing' motors is just not down to 250s to a 5. That said the 5 owners seem to be making the most noise, as a result we just might just see some help from the TR Register? I say 'might' as I understand there will be an article in the next TR Register publication by Mr Ferris re 250s masquerading as 5s.

 

So until then..............I'm getting the 5 out for a blast and pinch myself that I am fortunate to be able to own such a beautiful, charismatic yet beast of an automobile.

 

Best wishes,

Mike ;)

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Isn't the rarity component of value what this kerfuffle is all about? Price paid for a genuine car and value appreciation thereafter warrant some jealousy where pedigree is concerned. Otherwise, they're all Triumphs originating from the same factory with the overwhelming majority of bits in common.

 

I think after a decade or so the differences between '250s and '5s won't amount to much, and attempts to confuse prospective buyers will backfire. Ultimately, neither will be considered fast or sporting so much as vintage.

 

Cheers,

Tom

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Ooh opening another can of worms there Tom. Most accepted definition here is that Vintage covers 1919 to 1930, Post Vintage is 1931 to 1940.

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Has anyone contacted Roger Ferris as I don’t think he uses the Forum,his details I’m sure are in TRAction.

Niall, I have contacted Roger by E mail, he is aware of the situation. I contacted him simply because I rebuilt this TR250 to a very high standard, registered it as a 250 and am really pissed off that some scroat is trying to make a buck

on the back of my renovation.

 

Apparently Roger has followed the saga of my car for quite some time.

 

I doubt he could do much about it though, I think sadly its Buyer beware, and in all honesty someone parting with the kind of money now needed to buy a TR5 would have the car verified certified clarified and guaranteed by the seller.

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Pfenlon

I really sympathise with your sentiment.

Dont think you will get much Joy.

Hopefully as you say people will get some sort of appraisal done before parting with their cash.

Regardless take a look at the legal definition of fraud, see what you think regards when people start sticking badges on cars and getting DVLA to register what wasnt.

Niall, I have contacted Roger by E mail, he is aware of the situation. I contacted him simply because I rebuilt this TR250 to a very high standard, registered it as a 250 and am really pissed off that some scroat is trying to make a buck

on the back of my renovation.

 

Apparently Roger has followed the saga of my car for quite some time.

 

I doubt he could do much about it though, I think sadly its Buyer beware, and in all honesty someone parting with the kind of money now needed to buy a TR5 would have the car verified certified clarified and guaranteed by the seller.

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Isn't the rarity component of value what this kerfuffle is all about? Price paid for a genuine car and value appreciation thereafter warrant some jealousy where pedigree is concerned. Otherwise, they're all Triumphs originating from the same factory with the overwhelming majority of bits in common.

 

I think after a decade or so the differences between '250s and '5s won't amount to much, and attempts to confuse prospective buyers will backfire. Ultimately, neither will be considered fast or sporting so much as vintage.

 

Cheers,

Tom

It's not just about the monetary values.

 

There were a very limited number of UK TR5's built, and only the survivors of the original builds, whether a total rebuild, sympathetic overhauls, or fully originals, should be registered on V5c documents, as TR5's - to protect the marque.

 

I am waiting for an answer for Freedom Of Information request to the DVLA, who have turned it down once so I have appealed, to know how many V5c's have been issued as a Triumph TR5, when the commission number does not start with CP.

 

It was initially turned down on the pretence that it could result in criminal activity, and I have blown that apart.

How requesting just the number that have been issued (I didn't ask for the commission numbers themselves) can equate to criminal activity, I don't know. If they turn it down again, I shall go to the I.C.O.

 

The DVLA are themselves treading on dodgy ground, by allowing a modified car to be re-registered as a TR5 when it isn't. The new regulations for MOT's allows 40 year old cars to 'opt-out' provided they are not modified from original spec. There are exceptions, but only those that don't alter the characteristic of the car. Changing to a Pi system and increasing the power output considerably, would'nt be exempt in my opinion, thus creating double standards and conflict between the DVLA and the MOT Regs.

The DVLA are chewing on this info, right now!

 

I also have the FBHVC looking into this, on my request, too.

Edited by mafield

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I would like to provide an independent view on this:

Between brackets because I also have an opinion (i always have😀) vut I dont have a 5 or a 250.

I could not care less if I had a genuine 250 or a genuine 5, as long as it would meet my desires: provide fun to restore it, envision the first ride, etc.

What would upset me though is if I would have paid TR5 money, as an uninformed novice, for getting a 250. And there are many ynibformed people on the market. Can you blame them?

I think the TR Register and equivalent organisations should play a more active role here, to preserve the marque.

I realize the TR Register is run by enthousiasts, each with their own drive, but it would be good if a member with a legal background could deal with this.

Anyone?

Best regards,

Waldi

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Waldi, sanity rules, but we all know its the others I question

 

My new 250 arrives Southampton docks on Aug 11th.

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Well, while in the shower this morning, I have a missed personal call from a David Morgan from the DVLA, wanting a call back as soon as convenient!

 

Updates later....

 

 

UPDATE: The DVLA has supplied me with the information I requested - there are 17 taxed fake TR5's and 12 Sorn'd fake TR5's - 'fake' defined by the commission number/vin number NOT starting with CP. He is also going to send me the email address of the Vehicle Policy Group for Registrations, and asked that our Registrar write in to them. I also pointed out the issue with modified vehicles and the new MOT regulations, of which he took interest too.

Edited by mafield

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Please dont shower in future so as not to miss these golden opportunities!

Well, while in the shower this morning, I have a missed personal call from a David Morgan from the DVLA, wanting a call back as soon as convenient!

Updates later....

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