Triple webers ? Any good

[Tonymolloy]

So how reliable are the triple weber conversions you can buy,I'm on pi at the moment but car seems very under powered it's a 1970 model

[pinky]

 

When they are set up properly they are great

 

got pissed of fiddling with the fag papers, especially when I was trying to give the fags up

 

pink

[Guest ntc]

Depends on the engine spec,and is your Pi in good order?

[Don H.]

"Paging Tom Fremont... Will Tom Fremont please come to the white courtesy telephone..."

[TR NIALL]

If it's a 1970 PI and the Set Up is correct it should go as good as any Standard Webered Car.

[Guest ntc]

If it's a 1970 PI and the Set Up is correct it should go as good as any Standard Webered Car.

Yep

As I said there is no improvement over Pi with a std engine.

[graeme]

However, looking at the original posters other exotic machinery he will always be disappointed with the TR6's output.

 

Cheers

 

Graeme

[TR NIALL]

However, looking at the original posters other exotic machinery he will always be disappointed with the TR6's output.

 

Cheers

 

Graeme

Sure there only Dinky's.

[Tim D.]

as we haven't had a comment from Peter C. I should add in his place, go supercharger, loads of torque... And some would say a simpler solution (less to fiddle with)

Cheers

Tim

[Peter Cobbold]

as we haven't had a comment from Peter C. I should add in his place, go supercharger, loads of torque... And some would say a simpler solution (less to fiddle with)

Cheers

Tim

Tim,

Yes, a blower any day. But the Moss kit for 6s is still NLA, although I haven't looked for a couple of months.

Peter

[stuart]

Tim,

Yes, a blower any day. But the Moss kit for 6s is still NLA, although I haven't looked for a couple of months.

Peter

Still NCA Im afraid.

Stuart.

[Sapphire72]

Moss permanently discontinued supercharger- there was a problem with availability of the carburetor, couldn't be resolved.

 

Sometimes used ones come available on e-bay.

 

 

Here's the Notice from Moss:

 

http://www.6-pack.org/j15/index.php/forum/9-new-products-parts-sources-vendor-reviews/260527-Moss-Supercharger-Kit-Discontinued#431671

Edited July 29, 2017 by Sapphire72

[Peter Cobbold]

Moss permanently discontinued supercharger- there was a problem with availability of the carburetor, couldn't be resolved.

 

Sometimes used ones come available on e-bay.

 

 

Here's the Notice from Moss:

 

http://www.6-pack.org/j15/index.php/forum/9-new-products-parts-sources-vendor-reviews/260527-Moss-Supercharger-Kit-Discontinued#431671

All Moss have to do is ditch the bypass, that gains a couple of inches front-back clearance, and make a simple adaptor to couple a recon'd 2" HS8 SU to the blower. Vespertini did that 25 years ago:

http://prntscr.com/g1s2ld

( slide 15 here: https://supertrarged.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/iwe-tech-seminar-supercharging-trs-for-the-road/

 

Anyone who can use a lathe to make pulleys and Tig weld a blower adaptor plate to a stock twin carb intake manifold is on the road to building the cheapest torque gains ever. An Eaton M62 blower off ebay is around £250....

 

Easier still is to mount the M62 on a cradle below where the alternator normally sits. Fit an HS8 SU (£50-100 off ebay) facing forwards above it with cold air filter alongside the rad. Move the alternator to the exhaust side, keeping same fan belt crank pulley but using an idler to ensure wrap round the water pump. Replace plastic fan with leccy fan and use crank boss to fit blower drive pulley, belt in front of chassis x-tube. The rest is 2" bore piping to a plenum chamber bolted onto carb mounting holes on stock manifold. The starting dimension is to align the blower pulley with the crank pulley and work from there.....

 

Peter

Edited July 29, 2017 by Peter Cobbold

[Keith66]

Hi all,

I'm kind of thinking alone the lines of Graeme on this one, is it more what it's being compared with rather than being underpowered?

An oportunity to try a properly sorted Pi would be good and if that's better than yours Tony spend the Webber money on getting the Pi as close to 100% as possible.

0 to 60 in 8 Or 9 seconds, a top speed of 120 and midrange accerleration to match should feel reasonable in a close to 50 year old car.

But hey what do I know my normal drive was a 1.6 diesel Passat. Lol

Keith

Edited August 1, 2017 by Keith66

[Tim D.]

Carburettor problem for the SC was because the Holley needed modifying for the SC. There is actually very good clearance between the back fo the Holley and the firewall. Modification of the Holley involves drilling a small hole in the metering block to allow it to be connected to the vacuum signal upstream of the carb. There are notes on the web about a DIY approach. There is also a company on the web who will do the modification for you, just guessing it was too much faf for Moss..

Cheers

Tim

[Guest ntc]

Me thinks some can't read the mans question.

[Steves_TR6]

A 1970 cp model tr6 should go very nicely.

 

Perhaps try to attend a local group meet and get a ride/drive in another PI car to compare , maybe even a tripple webber one too?

 

I've always fancied teipple webbers but love the PI system once its set up right.

 

Steve

[peejay4A]

Me thinks some can't read the mans question.

Quite so Neil. I think the answer that most people who have triple Webers would give, once they're set up, is "Very".

 

As for the 6 being underpowered, subjectively I reckon my 4A goes quite a bit better than my well sorted but standard 6 did - but it's a different experience.

Edited July 29, 2017 by peejay4A

[Tom Fremont]

How reliable? In my experience with over 120K miles is ..by far the most reliable fitment on the entire vehicle. Moreover, a very straightforward application on the TR5/250/6 which will deliver 1HP/cubic inch with virtually unlimited service life on these engines. Subscribes to the engineers motto: KISS. Period correct too .

 

Supercharging reputedly gives more ( though I've never heard of more than 250 bhp on these which Webered engines have done too ) but these are fraught with all manner of technical hazards ( a friend has a 230 BHP supercharged TR6 which spins at 15,000 rpm ) and of course if it lets go the engine eats the bits. Data on longevity is wanting; perhaps the Prof could help here .

 

As I've posited here before, values of the RoW TR6 and even the TR5 could easily be 2-3X what they are today if fitted with these instead of the LUCAS P.I. which, as well as rare and not well understood nor supported outside the UK get severe altitude sickness due to the mixture control unit supplying more fuel as the air thins rather than vice versa as wanted.

 

Here in the 'States they are still rare because experience calibrating them is very rare, mostly due to emissions regulations completely preventing fitment of camshafts necessary to complement the Webers - without these, little or no power gain is possible. Only now are all TR6s eligible for tuning in the U.S. ( 30 years to age through the process ).

 

Cheers,

Tom

[Cew]

Changing to Webers alone will probably not significantly increase power. I found this out over 40 years ago when I swapped ,admittedley worn, SUs to 40DCOEs on a TR4. What did change however was the fuel consumption!. These were a brand new pair with manifolds and linkage (for the princely sum of £42 !!!) and no other mods to the engine.

What I should have done was changed camshaft,exhaust and air flow as well, what I did do, regretfully ,was to get married and sold the car.

[Peter Cobbold]

.

 

Supercharging reputedly gives more ( though I've never heard of more than 250 bhp on these which Webered engines have done too ) but these are fraught with all manner of technical hazards ( a friend has a 230 BHP supercharged TR6 which spins at 15,000 rpm ) and of course if it lets go the engine eats the bits. Data on longevity is wanting; perhaps the Prof could help here .

================

 

Tom

Eaton M62 blowers were fitted to Mercs so have to be reliable for ca100k miles.

 

But 15000rpm is way too excessive. To get to 230hp from 120 stock needs at least 15 psi boost, probably more. Thats a pressure ratio of 2 on this Eaton map:

http://prntscr.com/g1y105

and the air flow will be at least double that arrowed. Even so the blower should deliver that at no more than 10000rpm, well within its max.

 

Something is odd if he is running the blower a three times crank speed. It will add a lot of heat. A bigger blower would work better, closer to that island of best AE.

Has he got a blog/web site?

 

Peter

Edited July 29, 2017 by Peter Cobbold

[Guest ntc]

Boring

Start your own topic ? ooh another

[TR 2100]

Boring

Start your own topic ? ooh another

 

Not boring to me, nor, I suspect, to many others.

You don't have to read it.

 

AlanR

[HSM]

To reply to the original question. Back in the 60s triumph wanted a more powerful

engine for their sports car. The Triumph 2000 rally cars had triple Weber carbs

& a wild camshaft to produce 150 bhp (gross), fuel consumption was horrific with

poor flexibility. For a road car this was not acceptable. The solution was two fold

the engine could be enlarged by increasing the stroke to 2500cc & as the Triumph

2000s in the British Saloon Car Championship running Lucas fuel injection had

shown capable of taming a wild camshaft more successfully than the triple

Webers on the rally cars this was chosen for production use. I think the main

comparison of the two systems comes down to fuel economy & flexibility & not

power output. Some years ago I did an exercise on a motorway run to see what the

maximum fuel consumption that could be achieved in my TR6 was, the theory being

that the vac. unit on the metering unit when run at high vac. settings can be

extremely economical. I fitted a vac gauge so I could drive at max. readings

& achieved 46 mpg. I doubt this would be achievable on triple Webers.

 

 

 

Harvey S.Maitland

[Tim D.]

This was what I was always told by those who know Webers excellent for max power, but fuel economy isn't what they are designed for.

I spent 4-5 years setting up twin dellortos (a version of weber DCOEs with a better choke circuit) on my Lotus elan and even with acknowledged "experts" helping me out I never really nailed the transition from idle to full power to my liking. I could get them to work great, but this meant running rich in some parts which I didn't like. This highlights the other issue with sidedrafts like webers/dellortos, they have a lot of adjustments which means they can be hard to set up (particularly if your engine is not standard... and lets face it whose engine is these days!). Undoubtably, once you hit the sweet spot they will stay on it.

 

Compare this to the PI and it is true that better economy can be gained and the sidedraft nature of the TBs means that you can also get the power of the Webers. There are less adjustments and standard setups established for our engines, however again I found that a small amount of tweaking may be required to take into account any slight modifications. I had my PI running really well (as checked using an air/fuel meter) before going the SC route and it was great. The PI system doesn have one fundamental achilles heal which is that it doesn't have an enrichment pump for accceleration which means it has to be set a little rich which can effect economy. The only issue I had with the system was injector malfunctions (blockages or in one case just falling apart) and the challenge of settting up the linkage, the former was very annoying and as a result I always had a couple of spare injectors.

 

And regarding the SC, Neil, not sure what has got your goat, but take the point that we did drag this off topic, so many apologies. Being that the SC is discontinued it is not an option for most, but as you'll see, those that have them generally love them.. Although again, my experience is that it is not a fit and forget solution, again it is a system that needs a lot of tweaking to get perfectly sorted.

 

So in conclusion... All methods of delivering fuel into your car will need some form of tweaking to get spot on.

 

Webbers look and sound great and will give good top end but are not the most economical and can be fussy on the idle to main transition. If you get them also factor in a rolling road set up, it is worth every penny (but only if you find someone who knows how to set up webbers for general driving and NOT just full throttle racing)

 

The PI is a wonderful peice of engineering, it was built for the car and can run for ever giving good performance and potentially good economy but is complex which can mean issues need sorting at times.

 

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Tim