The price of spares...are we being ripped off.

[Dick]

The price of spares.

 

I was banging on about this last year, but here is a current example.....

 

So I need to rebuild the engine of the Fergy tractor...petrol TEA 20 that has similarities to a 4 pot TR.

 

Now I am not suggesting that the following are directly interchangeable, but most of it would if you were desperate, but am suggesting that the materials and production costs are in the same ball park as TR bits.

 

So, I buy an engine overhaul kit, it comprises of......

 

Front and rear crank seals.

4 liners. 85mm

4 pistons.

4 gudgeon pins.

4 stes of rings.

A complete engine gasket set.

Free next day delivery.

VAT included.

No trade discount....straight retail price to anyone.

 

£162

 

The quality looks superb, everthing well packaged in corrosion preventing paper and then boxed in heavy duty corrugated cardboard.

 

Oh yes and I could have bought a new crank including shells and thrust washers for another £240.

Admitted not cross drilled but lets say similar work input.

 

So this supplier makes a profit at these prices and so does the guy who makes them...and both have overheads to cover etc etc.

 

So why are our equivalent parts so expensive....I guess that if bought from one of our suppliers we would be talking at least double and vat and carriage.

 

Average sidescreen value say £20k.....tractor value less than £2k

 

Hmmm

[RogerH]

Hi Dick,

cans and worms to the fore .

 

The crank is super value (you didn't mention that it comes with main bearings and big end shells and thrust washers). Made in India for pennies (the odd bowl of rice etc)

On the positive side they do use the correct material - EN16. And the machine is good enough. And it would drop straight into a 4 pot TR with little problem.

 

I can only assume the other parts come from similar sources.

 

This can be highly acceptable considering the characteristics of the TRactor running life.

 

Anything made in Europe/UK/USA will be more expensive because of little things like wages etc.

 

Roger

[TriumphV8]

Anything made in Europe/UK/USA will be more expensive because of little things like wages etc.

 

Not only the prices are higher but also often the quality of TR spares are poor, too.

It is a shame!

I tend to use other parts if possible because even European parts do not need that price

to be made in good quality.....

 

The VW pistons for my TR6 come from Mahle, KS or Nüral and are skirt coated,

hypereutectic and come complete with rings etc. for about 25GBP each.

Not fully the Ferguson range but close to that....

[Alec Pringle]

It has seemed to me for the past 20 years that the Register's position vis-a-vis specialist suppliers has been positively supine, to a greater or lesser degree.

 

It's all well and good wishing to not rock any boats, and to keep up the advertising income at all costs, but the TR Register was formed to preserve the marque TR . . . . . and we don't achieve that by allowing the interests of the commercial specialist suppliers to take precedence over the interests of the membership.

 

There should be a symbiosis, a mutually beneficial relationship, between the club, its members and the specialist suppliers. That is essential to all of us in the longer term, if we wish to preserve the marque and keep the cars on the road.

 

There is, or should be, a role for the club in terms of enhancing coordination and cooperation between suppliers, of maintaining standards, and identifying problems in need of solutions.

 

Once upon a time we as a club had a pretty constructive outlook in that respect, but it's long ago dwindled away. Thankfully the past year has seen some resurgence of positive interest, and with a new board in place then hopefully we can look forward to getting back to where we once belonged - in this as in so many other areas.

 

There is simply no comparison between the Ferguson parts prices quoted above and TR parts prices. That might be a question of greed, or of poor buying, or of general incompetence on the part of TR specialists . . . . but they don't compare well to the tractor boys. Therefore there is a case to answer, and the Register should have a role to play in helping to find the answers.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Cew]

This has always been the case in the automotive parts industry,supply and demand I suppose. I can remember a friend of mine needing to buy a rear lamp for an early LR Discovery which at the time was about £45 the exact same part for a Maestro van was £27.Land Rover used what ever was available in various parts bins that fitted at the time I expect,needless to say which one my friend bought.

[stuart]

Why do you think there used to be a lot of 85mm engined TR`s running about years ago! I do agree with Dick having seen a couple of those kits that they are very good VFM.

Stuart.

[RogerH]

Is it really up to any club to tell/dictate a supplier what his profit margin should be.

 

I would have thought the main issue for the club would be to try an ensure some form of quality is there.

The TRR is the only Triumph club actively pursuing this.

 

There are very many parts for the TRactor that are more expensive than the typical component advertised by our biggest supplier.

When investigating crank shafts last year I gave the TRactor parts supplier the Moss web address - his eyes lit up.

 

Many of the TRactor parts suppliers hold some stock but most of it is delivered direct from a wholesaler.

Moss and Rimmer have vast sums of money wrapped up in stock - their stock rooms are huge.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not banging the drum for the suppler and would certainly like a reduction in prices but in my mind the first priority is actually being able to get the component at an acceptable quality level and then at a reasonable price.

 

 

Roger

[Alec Pringle]

No, of course it isn't up to the TR Register to dictate supplier margins.

 

I'd suggest it is up to the club to monitor and pursue quality, as you rightly observe.

 

I'd also suggest that our club has a role to play in terms of liaising between suppliers, acting as honest broker and discreet confidante, in the interests of avoiding duplication of effort and addressing priorities.

 

It's happened before, it should happen again.

 

Anything that encourages liaison between suppliers of TR, Morgan, Ferguson, TVR, Reliant, whatever, parts in common has to be a good thing.

 

United we stand . . . . . etc etc

 

I'd suggest also that the club has a role to play, serving its members, in terms of identifying and highlighting value for money product - and conversely identifying those products which do not represent reasonable value for money.

 

Yes of course we won't achieve miracles instantly, but if we're getting away from the public sector / local government mindset that has strangled the Register for most of the 21st Century thus far, then taking a more proactive stance to our relationships with suppliers has to be a fairly high priority.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Trumpy3]

This issue is a wold wide one. The TR Register here only covers the side screen TRs and carries a range of new parts sourced from various suppliers (see our web site). The quality of parts from Moss are a constant worry. Yes they look after us if we have a problem but it does not fix the base issue. Some items we will no longer carry. Prices are out of control. Especially given our current exchange rate (1.0 PD = $0.52AU).

We carry Fergy parts supplied from AE Bare. Engine rebuild kits are $670.00AU for 85mm and $737.00AU for 87mm. This consist of liners,pistons, rings, pins, pin bushes, thrust, main,and rod bearings, timing chain and tensioner and engine gasket kit.

 

Most 4 pots built here are built with these parts and there has never been a reliability or durability issue. I run them regularly to 5800RPM on the track. Cranks are $297.00AU and we have at least one member competing with one. Not a serious competitor but it shows that they are more than acceptable for road use. they can be cross drilled.

 

This is one of the ways we try to get realistic prices but there is only a limited range of alternative parts. Our lack of critical mass is one of our real problems. It is a numbers game.

 

Brian

Edited March 22, 2015 by Trumpy3

[RogerH]

Hi Brian,

when we were looking at the Fergie crank we noticed the radial oil hole in the BE journal.

This will function OK for most purposes - Fergies only do 2000RPM - but I'm sure with a decent oil pump higher revs in a TR would not be an issue.

 

It has been noted that many TR cranks having the cross drilling also have a tell tale radial oil hole. This is the end of the oil way running up the web. Sometimes it breaks through, sometimes it doesn't.

 

If the SDF crank becomes reality ( should besoonish) it will have the cross drilling.

 

Roger

[littlejim]

When I did my restoration I was just grateful that the bits were still obtainable.

Having them all listed in a book with detailed pictures was almost unbelievable.

Getting them in about 3 or 4 days, by air, from the other side of the world, was in the same category as above.

I have no idea how I would have tracked the bits down, in Oz, or elsewhere, or of their condition, or of the price I would have paid.

Don't be too hard on them.

 

The parts for my more modern Prado aren't exactly cheap.

Edited March 22, 2015 by littlejim

[Richardtr3a]

We are very lucky to be able to buy parts for these old cars. I recently bought a new jacking point floor blanking rubber for a 3A. It was easy.

 

Last autumn a friend visiting from France needed a new wheel for a 12 year old VW Passat. They are no longer stocked by the main dealers! It took half a day on the internet to find a second hand one.

 

The wheels are essential but the rubber plug is not.

 

I am very impressed by the suppliers of the hundreds of parts for our cars and they are welcome to a decent profit. There must be teams of managers out there sourcing parts across the world.

 

The quality is another issue which I will leave to Roger, whose technical knowledge is ahead of all of us.

 

Richard

[Don H.]

We are very lucky to be able to buy parts for these old cars. I recently bought a new jacking point floor blanking rubber for a 3A. It was easy...

Yes, I bought these recently as well. In fact, I bought them twice. The parts from one well-known supplier were too small and fell out of the holes. The parts from another well-known but smaller supplier fit perfectly.

 

My priority ranking puts quality first by a good margin. If the parts are no good, I don't care how much they cost.

[Dick]

Yes, I bought these recently as well. In fact, I bought them twice. The parts from one well-known supplier were too small and fell out of the holes. The parts from another well-known but smaller supplier fit perfectly.

My priority ranking puts quality first by a good margin. If the parts are no good, I don't care how much they cost.

They are early Land Rover parts....I'll remember which one if I keep thinking about it.....could be Series 2 gearbox tunnel blanks. Still available.

[Peter Cobbold]

Lists of equivalents would help.

A friend with a Miura discovered that Hillman Minx TREs were identical. He was paying ££ for the packaging.

[stillp]

Another factor affecting the price of Fergie parts is that agricultural spares are VAT-exempt in the UK.

[Dave Ashworth]

So, is anyone going to say, in plain English, what we CAN use for our 4 pot TRs from these other sources and where to get the parts from?

 

Too much cloak and dagger and not enough plain speaking.

 

I need to rebuild a TR4 engine and I'm soon to make a post asking where to get things like piston rings, etc.

 

Dave.

[ianc]

The most that anyone can safely say is that they used XYZ part in their TR and that the car has covered N thousand miles without problems – but we wouldn’t know how hard the owner uses the car and under what conditions, and the owner might have been lucky.

 

Without investigating thoroughly the material specification(s) of the part, the manufacturing specification(s) and the QA processes applied by the manufacturer and supplier, it would be very risky for anyone to state categorically that XYZ part from supplier A is equal to that from supplier B.

 

In my opinion, the most we can do is post our own experiences on the Forum and leave it to others to decide whether (or not) they want to use parts which we have found satisfactory.

 

Ian Cornish

[RogerH]

Hi David,

if you want to guarantee some sort of success with your engine build you need to source your bits from a TR supplier or a known supplier of quality engine parts.

Going off track may produce financial rewards but it is the unknown.

 

The TRactor crank that is being investigated has now taken a year (started march 2014) and is still being worked on - things take time.

The bearing shells that came with the tractor crank are certainly good up to 2000rpm - who would like to volunteer to see what RPM they can withstand for the duration.

 

Stick with what you know - the difference in cost isn't really that great.

 

Roger

[stuart]

Another factor affecting the price of Fergie parts is that agricultural spares are VAT-exempt in the UK.

Not applicable to classic tractor spares I think you will find.

Stuart.

Edited March 23, 2015 by stuart

[TR5tar]

As someone with little knowledge and experience of buying TR parts, I find the it a bit of a minefield. It's great that there are several parts suppliers to choose from as in theory that should keep the prices competitive, but I lack the insight to judge if what I pay is good or not, and I expect many newer members to the club are in a similar position.

 

Quality is another issue. I've read a lot on the forum about poor quality spares, often Chinese imports, which of course I'd wish to avoid, but often when I look for a part there are numerous options to choose from, making it difficult to know what's best. Of course, with a bit more research on the forum, some suppliers, such as the Distributor Doctor for example, seem to be noted again and again for the good quality of what they offer. However, it does seem to me that in most instances it is not straight forward.

 

All of this makes me wonder what, if anything, the TRR can do to help. I appreciate the risks of becoming too closely aligned with one or two sellers, but as a club we should have a lot of clout. After all, we have the power to provide a captive audience and to direct that audience to suppliers.

 

There might be very good reasons why as a club we shouldn't go down this road, but has the club ever investigated acting as a reseller for suppliers? We have a shop front on the website and already sell accessories and gifts, so is there an opportunity for endorsing certain spare and reselling them at a discounted price? Members win because they find parts that are endorsed and offered at the best price, while the TRR should also make money out of it (maybe by placing ads for participating suppliers on the spares page). Plus, participating suppliers will also win, because they should get more business.

 

Just thinking out loud, again.

 

Darren

[BrianC]

... if you want to guarantee some sort of success with your engine build you need to source your bits from a TR supplier or a known supplier of quality engine parts.

Going off track may produce financial rewards but it is the unknown.

 

 

To be even more sure, buy from someone that actually uses the parts they sell and has a reputation for building quality engines/gearboxes. They will almost certainly have tried, or at least explored, sourcing cheaper alternative parts and learned from any mistakes they have made in the past.

[RogerH]

Hi Darren,

stop thinking out loud

 

Quite often we hear that members would pay more for better quality. Now it has changed to 'are we paying too much'.

As for quality - the newly formed 'Parts Quality Initiative' - hasn't been overloaded with major problems.

 

There are half a dozen suppliers, they all do specials and sales etc but at the end of the day they need to make a profit. It is in our interest that they do.

Only a couple of years ago Moss Europe were in serious trouble. Pete Buckles stepped in (again) to save the day.

 

The various suppliers have their own little niche that they control and most depend on the others - should one fall by the wayside it wouldn;t necessarily be good for the others.

 

As for the TRR reselling parts

What part,

How big a stock,

How quick a response

What will it cost to run such a scheme

 

At present the TRR are trying to get rid of the manned shop and hand over to on-line third party suppliers

 

Now go back to sleep and stop worrying about things

 

Roger

[oldtuckunder]

As for quality - the newly formed 'Parts Quality Initiative' - hasn't been overloaded with major problems.

 

Any chance of it sourcing a timing chain tensioner that isnt made from used baked bean tins?

[RogerH]

For the PQI to investigate a problem we need some info. Can you complete the attached form and submit it.

 

Roger

 

http://www.tr-register.co.uk/pqi/