Maiden Road Run - A few issues to resolve?

[PodOne]

Hi all

My first drive of a TR6 as the driver.

Well perhaps not the best day to go for a first run but after 5 years and the wet weather on its way why not! Insurance via the Register done.

She starts ok after her first start up in May. Full choke and then 1/2 choke after a couple of mins no choke sl black smoke gone. No leaks so where off with some tools and a 5L of water just in case.

Fuel tank under 1/4. Temp stable in middle and fan kicks in and out. Alternator charging 14.7v. Oil pressure at hot idle 15-20psi 60psi on the road (old gauge was hoping it would be a bit higher OPRV spring? 

Gearbox I can get all the gears and the OD logic box seems to work fine.

She pulls well. Hot idle rpm 950-1000 Air bleed valve cracked sl open. Suspect the throttle bodies need balancing once things have settled 

Issues

1) Bonnet keeps popping if I hit a bump - pain in butt jumping in and out! Closes fine and emergency catch works fine seems lined up used tape and grease method latch seems to move freely too freely? Suggestions?

2) Fuel system background; All new - Ali tank, Moss fuel pump and filter, reconditioned MU, Throttle bodies, injectors (Neil Ferguson), plastic injector pipes with electronic ignition and Dizzy Doc distributor.

After 18 miles sounds great and I'm a happy bunny.

Until engine cuts fuel now less than 1/8 and she is a pig to start. No choke fires and dies. Let he cool and she runs for a few 1000 yards and cuts. At traffic light cuts and again difficult to start. So given all the posts on high temps, fuel vaporisation and low fuel tank levels I limp her into the shade.

The fuel pump "note increases" on some of the attempted starts. Open the boot and bonnet and let her cool. 

No fluid leaks which is promising. I was very surprised just how hot the fuel pump fitted in spare wheel position in boot with its own 12v relay/earth supply. Of more concern was the temperature of the boot floor its self, very hot. Not surprised the boot temperatures are very high as the std exhaust is directly beneath. Anyone fitted a heat shield? 

The Flame Thrower coil was also too hot to touch. I'm not liking it so it will be re-sited to the inner wing.

After 15-20mins cooling took a look at the plugs a bit sooty but not surprised as its been a bit stop start. Anyway she starts first time and I drive her 3 miles to the nearest Shell Garage for some V Power and she cuts just as a roll onto the pumps - made it! No hissing on opening the cap so the vent is working.

No start so a Coke and a rest cant tell you how may people came up to take a peak and one you lad wanted some pictures of her. Kinda made me feel it was all worth it!

After 10min restarted no issue and ran 6 miles home no issue.

I'm thinking all the forum posts regarding vaporisation is a reality. I'm going to run her with no less than a 1/4 full and she what happens. After that the pumps coming out and is going to be living outside under the wing, My fuel cooler on the PRV return would seem ineffective but given the low fuel volume any "cooled fuel" would have been adding to already warm fuel in the tank - so we will see.

3) Brakes; Had a solid pedal in the garage. Not so on the road very soft but she will stop with a few pumps and felt a little better on the way home so perhaps bedding in - leak check and pressure re-bleed planned. Past parts MC.    

Here's a few shots of all our work here on the forum there are many peoples contributions built into her. 

No doubt more questions to come.

Thanks all for now.

Andy

 

 

[Kevo_6]

Car looks great Andy. Progress is progress but I’m sure you’ll iron out all the little glitches soon and the car will be purring like a little kitten soon. Keep up the good work.

[Mk2 Chopper]

I'd say point one sounds like the plunger isn't long enough to latch fully and may need to be wound out a few more turns? 

Sounds like you've figured out your fuel issues, we the symptoms at least!

Brakes, will probably respond to further bleeding now you've used them a bit. 

Looking great though, and confirmation from the passers-by that enjoyed seeing it. 

Gareth

[roy53]

Dose your return fuel go into the filter as 5 and early 6  or as on later 6s return to the tank?

Try a full tank of cold fuel and see if things improve

[Malbaby]

I am impressed with your interior...Skinners?

 

[Waldi]

Hi Andy,

first: congratulations! What a nice car.
I hope you will drive and enjoy it a lot.

Regarding the bonnet:
Is the female half closing far enough with no heavy points? And stem too short as Gareth notes is another likely cause.

Regarding the stopping:
It could also be a coil issue, but not very likely given the work you have done. To rule that out, next time it stops see if it sparks (easiest with 2 people and an extra plug).

How hot is hot?
If you have a (cheap) infra-red thermometer you can do measurements of tank, pump and bottom of trunk. My pump and filter are in the LHS bottom of the trunk.

I try to avoid running below a 1/4 tank, certainly with hot weather.

I’m sure you will find it.

Waldi

[Dave McDonald]

Well done Andy, looking good. 
Dave McD

[TR NIALL]

Well Done Andy the TR is looking great,as others have said running with a near empty Tank is to be avoided and recheck for any fuel restrictions to the pump especially pre filter,Brakes I would re bleed as it seems from your description of Pumping that you still have Air in the system somewhere,Enjoy.

[RogerH]

Hi Andy,

 

Nice 

 

Roger

[Mike C]

The car looks great.  You should be proud of the  TR and  glad to be on the road.

For years I had to stop and  to reclose a popped bonnet after hitting a bump. I tried everything- catch adjustments , a new catch etc.  The problem seemed to be caused by a repro bonnet fastener being fitted at some time in the past with a spring that was far too strong.

Two years ago I cut 3 coils out of the spring so that the bonnet opened when the catch was released but did not open not like a tripped rat trap.

This seems to have fixed the problem , even when I hit the known popping bumps at speed.

If your fuel cooler is in the PRV return the bulk of the fuel will be going through it under most operating conditions. Make sure your pump has generously has a generously  sized suction line , is positioned  as low as possible in the boot and I personally like to have 5-7 diameters of straight pipe into the pump suction ( a hangover from the days when I used to work for a living).

I avoid the vapourization problem by having a booster pump with good suction characteristics under the tank feeding  the Bosch unit.

There seems to be a lot or fuel vapourization problems in the UK at the moment- maybe the petrol suppliers have changed to winter blend early?

Your brakes just seem to be just bedding in.

 

[PodOne]

Thanks all for your kind words and ongoing advice - appreciated.

Bonnet catch seems to be well aligned as in pics. The two rubber buffers I've reduced the height of them both. The catch is the original one re-plated with a square section spring the only thing that might be of concern is that "Claw/catch" is very easy to move - weak spring and it only just seems to enter the aperture? I wonder if this is the issue?

Mike - Its a repro spring assembly. Pity I don't have a OEM one as I could swap the springs over. It would be useful if someone could compare them side by side. When released the bonnet springs up well even with the spring set as long as I dare so taking a coil or two off it might help.

Fuel system - Big bore 10mm outlet from tank to fuel tap, no pre filter, pump, post filter on the principle the less there is there less resistance to flow.

Waldi/Roy - very hot to touch the Dodo mat sound deadening had the imprint of the spare tyre imprinted on it. The exhaust heat must be significant the pump body was also hot with very little fuel in the tank she may perhaps have being sucking air from time to time. 

Plan

1)  Filled her to the top with fresh fuel, run and see.

2) Ordered some aluminium exhaust heat shield material to fit between the exhaust and body - modern cars have lots of heat shields

3) Moved the coil to the inner wing. Its brand new so should be fine measures 3.1 ohms. 

4) Check brake system for leaks adjust rears if required.

Andy

[stuart]

Filtration for the pump is the wrong way round, BIG filter pre pump (Sytec do nice big ones with big inlet/outlet) then pump then forwards. Under the wheel arch is a good place to keep cool.Take the pin and spring off the catch then try the pin in the catch and see if just pulling the pin up springs the catch as it maybe the return spring isnt man enough.

If its a new ally tank I think the tun dish input is quite high so you run out with the needle still on the gauge and a couple of inches of fuel in the tank. certainly found that with one I have here currently.

Stuart.

[elclem1]

Hi Andy whats the fuel pressure at the MU?

[PodOne]

9 minutes ago, stuart said:

Filtration for the pump is the wrong way round, BIG filter pre pump (Sytec do nice big ones with big inlet/outlet) then pump then forwards. Under the wheel arch is a good place to keep cool.Take the pin and spring off the catch then try the pin in the catch and see if just pulling the pin up springs the catch as it maybe the return spring isnt man enough.

If its a new ally tank I think the tun dish input is quite high so you run out with the needle still on the gauge and a couple of inches of fuel in the tank. certainly found that with one I have here currently.

Stuart.

Hi Stuart 

My mistake its fitted as you say pre filter first, Pump then to PRV/MU. No post filter. Pump the black one in the pic.

Do you mean that the sender unit over reads the level hence you run out of fuel sooner than you think?

I'll try the catch as you suggest. When you say return spring I presume its the one attached to the claw in the catch not the one attached to the bonnet. 

17 minutes ago, elclem1 said:

Hi Andy whats the fuel pressure at the MU?

Hi Clem

From memory measured at 108psi +/- 1% at idle but I can recheck it easy enough. Recon PRV from Neil F who I guess would have calibrated it. 

Andy

[stuart]

9 minutes ago, PodOne said:

Hi Stuart 

My mistake its fitted as you say pre filter first, Pump then to PRV/MU. No post filter. Pump the black one in the pic.

Do you mean that the sender unit over reads the level hence you run out of fuel sooner than you think?

I'll try the catch as you suggest. When you say return spring I presume its the one attached to the claw in the catch not the one attached to the bonnet. 

 

 

Its not that the sender over reads its that the outlet from the tank via the tun dish is a bit higher than the originals hence you still have fuel in the tank but nothing leaving it.

Yes the spring in the catch, its possibly not as strong as originals.

Stuart.

[Mike C]

In my early endeavors to stop the bonnet springing up  installed a repro catch and it made the problem worse so I  went back to the original. The repro catch spring  had  a round section and was not as strong as the square section original.

The spring I trimmed was the one on the pin. My theory  was that the body/ bonnet assemblies flex when the vehicle hits a bump and the pin spring then tries to open the bonnet . Reducing the force trying to open the bonnet when these flexures occur might help the catch to keep it closed. This seems to be whats happening now.

[PodOne]

1 hour ago, stuart said:

Its not that the sender over reads its that the outlet from the tank via the tun dish is a bit higher than the originals hence you still have fuel in the tank but nothing leaving it.

Yes the spring in the catch, its possibly not as strong as originals.

Stuart.

Ah now I understand what you mean. So in reality you can never fully drain the tank either.

[stuart]

1 hour ago, PodOne said:

Ah now I understand what you mean. So in reality you can never fully drain the tank either.

You should be able to get most of it out as the drain is the other side, that also depends on the boss for the drain plug, whether its been welded on the outside only or if its an insert.

Stuart.

[dblenk]

Very nice

David

[PodOne]

Evening all

Update - Nice day so took her out to see if the full tank of fuel would improve things.

Started on the button and she ran well no cutting out/vaporisation issues for 50 miles on a mixture of town, A roads and a couple of motorway junctions and things seem to to sounding, feeling freer. OD works well and seems to be a bit quicker that on her first outing. Having never driven a 6 before do they suffer scuttle shake? Seems similar to the MX5 in this regard which suffered a lot from it. 

The idle is a bit variable between 900 - 1000 expect the throttle bodies will need better balancing and checking for any vacuum leaks along with the ignition timing. 

No popping bonnet - took Stuarts advice and the pin was solid in the catch without the spring fitted. Just in case it was the return spring I'd ordered a new catch - lets just say it will be returned as the return spring was weaker that my own by quite a margin and the hole for the emergency release catch was in the wrong place. Repro parts strike again!

So what was the problem? On a closer look at my catch the emergency catch was preventing the claw from fully entering the "hole" there was about 1mm gap before the end of the slot if that makes sense. The emergency catch was unable to rotate back as it was coming into contact with the weld from the bonnet catch hook. Bit of a file to the weld and catch and the claw was able to move further into the catch aperture the same as the repro one. 

Brakes - Feeling a bit better. No leaks I could see and a reasonable pedal in the garage again but I still intend to re bleed the system as I'm not convinced there isn't a bit of air left somewhere. Or it could just be me having being brought up on modern over servoed brakes.

I thought I was doing well with no fluid leaks but I now have one from the distributor as in the photo. I'm thinking it's the "O" ring on the distributor body above the dog drive? 

Andy

   

[Mike C]

Getting there. TR's suffer a lot from scuttle shake due to the separate chassis construction. Probably a lot more than you experienced in a MX5 with its monocoque construction.. The H frame helps a lot to keep it under control, make sure its top & bottom mounting bolts are tight.

I set my idle at 800-900 rpm to prevent pressure pulses oscillating components in the MU and throttle butterflies.

I'd clean and then try to identify the source of the leak  by sprinkling talcum powder on suspected sources. That looks suspiciously like a leak I had from a defective MU fuelling diaphragm.

[stuart]

Re the scuttle shake, thats why when building them I seam weld the joint at the bottom of the "A and B" posts to the sills plus apply twice the amount of spot welds as the factory used on the sills, so with that and the "H" frame securely bolted down and up as well as the metal dash hard bolted to the scuttle tends to eliminate all of that.

Stuart.

[roy53]

Andy where dose the hot return fuel from the metering unit go ?

Roy

[PodOne]

21 hours ago, Mike C said:

Getting there. TR's suffer a lot from scuttle shake due to the separate chassis construction. Probably a lot more than you experienced in a MX5 with its monocoque construction.. The H frame helps a lot to keep it under control, make sure its top & bottom mounting bolts are tight.

I set my idle at 800-900 rpm to prevent pressure pulses oscillating components in the MU and throttle butterflies.

I'd clean and then try to identify the source of the leak  by sprinkling talcum powder on suspected sources. That looks suspiciously like a leak I had from a defective MU fuelling diaphragm.

Hi Mike

Yes it's more than in the MX5 which I never fully resoled but then she was a very different animal. The H Frame is solid. Too late now and maybe if I'd driven one first I'd have tried to incorporate a brace and frog arms to the outside of the inner wings where no one would have seen them. But at the end of the day if its normal to have some its normal plus my track days are over!

I'll set the idle lower once I've done 500 miles or so and everything has had a chance carbon up a bit.

Oil leak from the picture its coming from above the the pedestal stem so must be getting by the "O" ring on the distributor stem and flowing down. Am I correct in thinking it's connected to the oil gallery on the side of the block direct from the oil pump if so it will be under a bit of pressure?

 The MU has been fully rebuilt so I'd expect the diaphragm to be fine.

8 hours ago, stuart said:

Re the scuttle shake, thats why when building them I seam weld the joint at the bottom of the "A and B" posts to the sills plus apply twice the amount of spot welds as the factory used on the sills, so with that and the "H" frame securely bolted down and up as well as the metal dash hard bolted to the scuttle tends to eliminate all of that.

Stuart.

Hi Stuart

The A and B posts were seam welded to the sills as I couldn't understand why you wouldn't. It seemed daft having the A post bottoms effectively waving about in fresh air. I thought it might be to allow water out so put a drain hole inside the top of the sills which are seam welded on the top and the inners to the floor and sprayed lots of wax in there. 

The metal dash as you suggest is then the most  likely culprit as it's a bit flimsy with just slots to locate and secure. I think if I ever have to remove I'll retighten everything and fit some more nuts and half bolts as the originals being so small I won't have gone mad with the torque in fear of snapping them off as they are captive. You live and learn!

7 hours ago, roy53 said:

Andy where dose the hot return fuel from the metering unit go ?

Roy

Hi Roy

The hot return goes back to the tank. Suspect there isn't that much given the small diameter return line plus its in the moving air so is cooled on its return.

The hot fuel from the PRV goes through a cooler (from a Citroen C3) under the rear inner wing and then back to the tank. 

Thanks all for the replies so far.

Andy

[michaelfinnis]

The only time I suffered from fuel vaporisation at the pump was when I had a Bosch type pump which was in the car when I bought it. I later fitted a Lucas pump with cooling coil, reconditioned by Neil Ferguson and the same time I fitted some heat shield material to the Fraser of the spare wheel area. I’ve have had no problems since, even with low tank levels in hot weather. 
Make of that what you will.It just seemed to me that quite a lot of heat from the exhaust was radiating into the area around the pump. Also the Bosch pumps do not suck as well as the Lucas type. They need a good unrestricted supply and I’m not convinced they are the panacea that some will have you believe.