F1 Saudi Arabia

[barkerwilliams]

For a circuit built like a toboggan run it produced an interesting spectacle for the viewers, a very exciting race with the commentators going into overdrive.

I enjoyed that race. Worth watching if you have not seen it.

Alan

[Mick Forey]

Race control having to make up procedures and rules as novel situations developed. There is going to be a lot of debate amongst the teams and the FIA as a result. A thrilling race nevertheless.

Mick

[ntc]

For me the worst standard of F1 driving for years the track is too narrow. Glad it is at the start of next year 

[john.r.davies]

Not often ntc and I agree!    That was a travesty.  Jeddah is advertised as a "street circuit", to excuse it being too narrow, with no run offs.   It's not a street circuit, it was built for the purpose.   Badly.

As I've said before, when Regulation 14.4.2 "The driver will be judged to have left the track if any wheel of the car goes beyond the outer edge of the kerb... or the white line" is consistently ignored in F1, as if the kerbs or white lines were wider than the cars themselves.   In this race, several drivers including Hamilton as well as Verstappen and Ocon "left the track" so completely as to drive over the sponsors logos in the vestigial run-offs.   Somehow, the Clerk seemed to recall that regulation at a convenient time to penalise Verstappen.

But my main concern was the lack of proper driving discipline, mainly on the part of Verstappen, but again by Hamilton.     When the BTCC series that actually encouraged and gloried in car-to-car contact  hit TV, I saw a definite deterioration of discipline in club racing.      Pushing your way through a difficult overtake was no longer a matter of fine judgement and daring cornering, but pushing your opponent out of the way.  With this as the example at the pinnacle of motor sport, I fear that club sport will go further down the road towards Banger racing.

Hrrrrmph!

John

[Hamish]

I’m with you John on the bumping and boring in racing nowadays 

btcc was the lead in dreadful driving standards contact wise. 
 

I would love to try circuit racing but just dare not for fear of damage. 
 

thus my sprints and hillclimbs is between me and the track. 
 

watched with interest Freddie flintoff getting his racing licence on top gear.  Would be nice thing to have in your pocket. 

[roy53]

I think the first 2 drivers disgraced themselves..

A circuit built between concrete walls with no access to lift cars damaged out of the way. Red sea one side and a lagoon the other, so  only way is drive on the track MAD

All 4 races F2 and F1 stopped.

Sad that we have to return there in the coming years

Roy

 

 

[Hamish]

It appears that the FIA have recognised the shortcomings of this track and that the drivers don’t understand walls. 
 

they have announced a one track use car design that should help.

[John Morrison]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:01 PM, roy53 said:

I think the first 2 drivers disgraced themselves..

A circuit built between concrete walls with no access to lift cars damaged out of the way. Red sea one side and a lagoon the other, so  only way is drive on the track MAD

All 4 races F2 and F1 stopped.

Sad that we have to return there in the coming years

Roy

 

 

I personally think this track is dangerous, but then I do not think Monaco is up to F1 any longer either.

That said, I think tarring Lewis and Max with the same brush is nonesense.

Three times Lewis bailed to avoid an accident, and is it lost on anyone that losing both cars would have led to Verstappen going into this weekend ahead?

He also received two time penalties, the latter, for the cardinal sin of brake testing, presumably proven by data, which in effect was meaningless, as it changed not one jot.

I think the race direction, and the stewards leave, lets say, much to be desired.

John.

[Ian Vincent]

30 minutes ago, John Morrison said:

 

I think the race direction, and the stewards leave, lets say, much to be desired.

John.

I believe it is widely recognised within the sport that Mike Masi is out of his depth.

Rgds Ian

[barkerwilliams]

Hamish,

Verstappen  thinks he is driving one of those anyway. Since when has running your opponent off the road being acceptable, he is a dirty driver that brings the sport no credit. 

Alan

Edited December 7, 2021 by barkerwilliams

[John Morrison]

20 minutes ago, barkerwilliams said:

Hamish,

Verstappen  thinks he is driving one of those anyway. Since when has running your opponent off the road being acceptable, he is a dirty driver that brings the sport no credit. 

Alan

YES!

John.

[john.r.davies]

Yes, as Roy, said, John agreed and was commented on Inthe race, no cranes or other means of removing a car beyond a tow truck.   In Saudi, richer than Croesus!    

Monaco is a relic, but one festooned with history, that does its best with run offs at corners (down side streets!) and cranes everywhere.    I believe the driver's love it - half of them live there! - and it provides a different style of race, that none of the modern designed circuits have.

F1 went back to Zandvoort, to great success.   Where else?  Estoril?

 

[Misfit]

I wonder how many of those drivers on that track have at sometime done exactly what Verstappen did. 
 

 

 

[john.r.davies]

What?   After being told by his crew by radio that he should give up his place, to slow in the middle of the track (the narrow track) while swerving side to side, to give the car behind no clue as to which side to pass?

[iain]

Max is setting the standard, it’s very low, others will have to follow or be left behind, it will end in tears unless Masi grows a pair. 

[ntc]

1 hour ago, john.r.davies said:

What?   After being told by his crew by radio that he should give up his place, to slow in the middle of the track (the narrow track) while swerving side to side, to give the car behind no clue as to which side to pass?

+1 and his only championship is in karting says a lot 

[John Morrison]

What are the odds, we'll see a Senna v Prost or Schumaccer v Hill end to our season,

looking at the follow ups after Sunday, many folk are fearful of this.

John.

[barkerwilliams]

John,

Just look at the last few races overtake attempts by Lewis on Max on corners. On every occasion Max has gone into the corners too fast and gone striaght on taking Lewis out into the greenery, or a touch of double decker parking.  I honestly believe that if lewis is ahead of Max then Max will attempt to take him out to win the "championship". Even brake testing to get an advantage if Lewis needed a new front wing as per the last outing.

If Max does win that way then the championship is devalued. I cannot believe the Bernie Ecclestone would have allowed the situation to develop in this way he always looked to the future of the sport in ten or twenty years time not just a one season wonder.

Unless the racing is clean then it has no merit and probably a reducing audience and a reducing income.

Alan

 

[Bleednipple]

The thing is, whatever we may think from a technical/rules/sprit-of-racing perspective, F1 is of course about money and that means TV audiences. I'd be prepared to bet that the majority of the global audience for F1 don't really follow any other motorsport so will have little awareness or interest in the on-track ethics in other disciplines. Much as I'd like to think Alan is right and 'clean' racing would generate bigger audiences, actually I think the reverse is true - let's face it F1 has gone through long spells of utter tedium. I've no doubt Sunday's shenanigans will have generated huge extra media interest. Verstappen is a classic enfant terrible and Abu Dhabi will I presume now get extra-plus audiences. 

Nigel

Edited December 8, 2021 by Bleednipple

[Bluestone]

Abu Dhabi may become the ultimate Christmas pantomime....plenty of villains and ugly sisters on parade!

[cvtrian]

48 minutes ago, barkerwilliams said:

I cannot believe the Bernie Ecclestone would have allowed the situation to develop in this way he always looked to the future of the sport in ten or twenty years time not just a one season wonder.

 

 

Hi Alan, wasn't Bernie in charge when Schumacher "took out" Damon Hill (sucessfuly), and when Schumacher attempted to take out Jacques Villeneuve (failed) in similar situations, not to mention similar earlier "indiscretions" when taking out a challenger resulted in the person causing the "accident" went on to win the championship?
IMHO Alan is on the "money"
Ian

[john.r.davies]

3 hours ago, Bleednipple said:

The thing is, whatever we may think from a technical/rules/sprit-of-racing perspective, F1 is of course about money and that means TV audiences. I'd be prepared to bet that the majority of the global audience for F1 don't really follow any other motorsport so will have little awareness or interest in the on-track ethics in other disciplines. Much as I'd like to think Alan is right and 'clean' racing would generate bigger audiences, actually I think the reverse is true - let's face it F1 has gone through long spells of utter tedium. I've no doubt Sunday's shenanigans will have generated huge extra media interest. Verstappen is a classic enfant terrible and Abu Dhabi will I presume now get extra-plus audiences. 

Nigel

I fear that Nigel is right.   The BTCC was just another series, until it was permitted to police its own discipline ( see the Blue Book) and allowed contact euphemised as "rubbing", "mirror swaps" to occur without penalty.    It got the series a big following, TV contracts and BIG money!   If F1 wants to expand its fan base, this is the way to go.

[Alfrom]

The two 'johns 'above are quite right, so called 'street circuits are simply not suited to F1 cars.  In fact many of the others now are not suitable for F1 either as the cars accelerate and brake far too efficiently for overtaking to occur safely  In fact the advent of DRS is often the only way it is possible for overtaking manoeuvres to happen away from the pit stop calculations.

As for Lewis, have a look back a few years and try to count the number of times he also forced his way through on the inside of a bend, he's been no angel.  These days, his indignation and feeling of entitlement know no bounds.  As for the brake testing episode, he should be blaming slow communications rather than instantly jumping on Max who afterall was only doing as he was advised by his team

Perhaps I am biased as I had the huge pleasure of being driven at speed by Jos Verstappen in a 2 seat Minardi several years ago.  Rockingham was a great circuit at F1 speeds!

[Misfit]

7 hours ago, cvtrian said:

Schumacher "took out" Damon Hill (sucessfuly), and when Schumacher attempted to take out Jacques Villeneuve (failed) in similar situations, not to mention…….

 

22 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

What?   After being told by his crew by radio that he should give up his place, to slow in the middle of the track (the narrow track) while swerving side to side

If I recall correctly, didn’t we have a team give orders for their second driver to take out another driver in an opposing team, he nearly took himself out permanently. I wonder why. 

(What?) opening ones hand to allowing the car to drift out seems a regular event. I don’t know what was going through Verstappen mind when told let Hamilton Pass, was it deliberate he must be nuts if he thought he would get away with it. Is he mad?

Edited December 8, 2021 by Misfit

[Hamish]

Max was calculating the optimum point to let Lewis by so that they would cross the DRS activation line in Lewis max order. So that max would have DRS to pass Lewis via DRS advantage.
 

lewis knew this and thus didn’t want to pass at Max’s chosen point and also slowed. 
 

its technicalities of the sport (that is still “racing” ) that will settle this season - rather than actual traditional driver car combo racing.

and as has been said above

if max can take Lewis out even if he can’t finish either will mean he wins as he has a greater number of wins this season. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Hamish