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Verstappen vs Hamilton - what do you think?


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The Formula1 site has all the on and off car footage: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.must-see-huge-drama-at-silverstone-as-verstappen-crashes-out-after-contact.5TYpA4sgotEd2OWVYU2lKg.html

I think that Hamilton was giving way to Verstappen, see the rear view from the Red Bull car at: 0.50     Before that he had at least half a car of overlap, which does give him the inside line, but he was being cautious.

And then, Verstappen turned in on him, see the overhead view at: 1:30    But Versappen probably couldn't see him then, assumed he had fallen back further.

IMHO, Racing incident.

Who were the Stewards at the race?   Lars Orsterlind, Paolo Longini, and Nigel Mansell!  OK, Mansell waved the Union Flag when he won at Silverstone, but all of them are enormously experienced. And he would have been outvoted if only he thought that the incident was otherwise.

John

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Hi John,

 what disgusted me about the incident was not the actual prang it self (I thought Lewis had right of way) but the Channel 4 commentary .

They could not have been more critical of Hamilton. And when they were interviewing the RedBull chief they were allowing to continue saying that it was a criminal act.

I thn he was slightly biased.

Max left a gap, Lewis too advantage and then Max closed to=he door just too late.

 

Roger

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I'm not a Hamilton fan, but in this case it wasn't his fault. He had the right to be there and Verstappen turned into him.

ISC (International Sporting Code) is quite clear about this situation.

If the front wing of the overtaking car is next to the rear wheel the leading driver is not free of line and has to keep space for the overtaking driver.

From my guess, Hamilton tried to avoid the foreseeable collision but didn't manage to brake harder not locking the front wheels.

Edited by MadMarx
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Roger, Christian Horner is entitled to his opinion, and who can blame him or Verstappen for feeling that way?   As for showing it on Ch4 - such strong opinions are media GOLD!   Especially when most of the interveiws are of the "how did you feel" type.   They just allowed him to express his feelings, reporting the truth as he saw it.

A ten second penalty for Hamilton recognises that he had a part in the incident, and again IMHO was a nicely judged penalty.  For anyone else, ten seconds in the pits is an enormous delay, and would have scuppered his chance.    He only JUST caught LeClerk, and if LC hadn't allowed his car to jink on the Copse kerb, he might not have got by.        If they had given him 15 (I don't know if they can) he probably wouldn't have caught him at all.

John

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Just looked at the video, Max left the door open and Lewis tried to get through possibly not quick enough but too late to take avoiding action as Max turned in.

50/50 blame in my book , but then I don't drive race cars and these guys have a lot at stake.

Brian

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I may be biassed but think Lewis was wrong in this collision. I’m not an expert like others on here but he drove on dirty track. The rivalism between the 2 drivers certainly played a role too.
Off course, all Dutch experts on the tele agree with me.

And the jury has spoken. 

Overseas greetings to all.
Waldi

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I thought they were both at fault - having been "sold a dummy", Max tried his usual bullying tactics by turning in to aggressively. and Lewis could have backed out - but why should he!

Apart from the incident, it was a pretty good race, especially the last 10 or so laps when Lewis was on a charge. Surprised that he couldn't seem to get closer to LeClerc at the beginning of the race though.

Pete

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As Christian says (Marx not Horner) and as EVERY racing driver knows, although you may have a different perspective from inside the car, you need to exactly understand that if the following cars front axle is over the middle of your leading car on the outside... it's the following cars racing line.

This is viewed as such by officials to put the onus of decision upon the only driver who has the perfect understanding of both cars on the track and their relationships to each other...in this case Hamilton. Mostly this responsibility allows the overtaking driver on the inside to make space for the car on the outside, but at cost to himself of either losing the place or losing time or sometimes even loosing control of his own car by having to brake harder in too tight a radius.

Verstappen has bullied and aggressively pulled this sort of manoeuvre a few times now with the drivers involved (including Hamilton on at least 1 once) doffing him their hats and shooing him through. This was Hamilton "marking Max's card" and exactly the sort of aggressive refusal to be bullied out of the racing line that EVERY racing manager (including Christian Horner) expects to see from his drivers.

In my view...racing incident, however the 10 sec penalty was Hamiltons slap on the wrist from the officials, which may make him remember his obligations. The bruises and panicked reruns in Max's head when asleep may remind him that expecting another driver to save your life is a high risk gamble itself. Remembering the days of Michael Schumaker and some of his frankly dangerous manoeuvres I think the officials would be on buckets of smelling salts and moist flannels on their foreheads having to deal with him. 

Mick Richards  

 

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19 minutes ago, andyhall said:

Max was playing chicken with the wrong man in the wrong corner, nothing to stop him taking the Leclerc line.

+1 everything I said, just put brilliantly succinctly.

Mick Richards

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I was very surprised it the C4 commentary against Hamilton at the time. 
I only watched it this afternoon as I’ve been away and not having seen or heard any news on it I saw it with fresh eyes and my immediate thought that it was a racing incident. 
max thought he had closed off the inside line against the wall. 
mistake 1 H snuck through that left max to try and defend which he did by closing in on a car that was alongside and came off second best by chance. 
racing incident.

but on the world stage with a heavy crash there was always going to be some penalty. Luckily this didn’t decide the race as it has done in the past.

christian Horner is normally very measured but him going over the heavy crash etc. Didn’t do him any favours.

any sanctions should be in relation to the driving behaviour/incident  not the outcome of the incident 

would we have a range of penalties for car damage can continue 

car damage can’t continue

driver injury scales etc

No - just driver behaviour.

vettel received a 10 second penalty for deliberately driving into Hamilton in 2017  

This incident was not comparable. Yet the penalty was.

My humble opinion is the Lewis Max coming together was a racing incident. 

 

 

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Ah! Of course! the "International Sporting Code"   Thank you, Roger!   Call myself a racing driver!  I should be ashamed.

So, to educate myself, I have downloaded from the FIA the latest copy of said Code.   But where does it mention "overtaking"?   Nowhere relevant, nor "pass", "line", "racing line", "contact", "corner" or "accident".    It is entirely concerned with the organsiation of racing!

JOhn

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15 hours ago, Hamish said:

I was very surprised it the C4 commentary against Hamilton at the time. 
I only watched it this afternoon as I’ve been away and not having seen or heard any news on it I saw it with fresh eyes and my immediate thought that it was a racing incident. 
max thought he had closed off the inside line against the wall. 
mistake 1 H snuck through that left max to try and defend which he did by closing in on a car that was alongside and came off second best by chance. 
racing incident.

but on the world stage with a heavy crash there was always going to be some penalty. Luckily this didn’t decide the race as it has done in the past.

christian Horner is normally very measured but him going over the heavy crash etc. Didn’t do him any favours.

any sanctions should be in relation to the driving behaviour/incident  not the outcome of the incident 

would we have a range of penalties for car damage can continue 

car damage can’t continue

driver injury scales etc

No - just driver behaviour.

vettel received a 10 second penalty for deliberately driving into Hamilton in 2017  

This incident was not comparable. Yet the penalty was.

My humble opinion is the Lewis Max coming together was a racing incident. 

 

 

+1.

 

and I've watched many different 'Experts' views, concencus is this also, with perhaps Lewis slightly more to blame, than Max.

I think there will be more of this, but Max needs to 'Grow up' when Lewis was ahead, he had most to lose, and drove accordingly, taking a second sometimes.

Max has this to learn. Thought Horners comments were a disgrace, disappointment and angst aside, akin to an Argentinian footballer trying to get an English player red carded.

 

He has gone down in my estimation.

John.

 

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15 hours ago, Hamish said:

I was very surprised it the C4 commentary against Hamilton at the time. 

 

As I posted above - I was disgusted by the coverage of Channel 4. Repeatedly blaming Hamilton and allow CH to do likewise over and over again.

 

JohnD,

why not contact MadMarx he did the original post.

 

Roger

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I watched it on Sky, and the commentators were seemingly more impartial than Ch4, most saying it was a racing incident but accepting a 10 sec penalty was probably appropriate, particularly as a similar penalty was imposed on Lando Norris in a previous GP. Sky experts included Martin Brundle, Jenson Button, Karun Chandhok and Damon Hill.............a few years appropriate experience there!

Maybe it would have been more balanced reporting on Ch4 had they given equivalent air time to Toto Wolff rather than a focus on Christian Horner.

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They did get Wolff to respond!  May have been added to the Highlights shown late that evening.   He was, as you would expect, defensive.  

John

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Surely the root of the problem is a circuit with limited overtaking possibilities with evenly matched cars and drivers, and the whole F1 industry pushing for drama and excitement not processions.

Exploring the limits is the only choice left to both a following driver and also the defending driver.

If the drivers can't accept that there will be incidents then they don't deserve the salary.

Alan

 

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