RogerH Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 16 hours ago, Chilliman said: , I'm just not sure you understand the significance of the different seal options. The Christiam Marx seal keeps the scroll so you have all the original designed benfits of the scrolls sealing action whilst in motion but it adds an additional layer of protection in the form of a viton seal as well - so in summary it gives the best of both worlds a scroll & a viton seal working independently of each other. Hi John, when the CM lip seal is fitted the scroll seal shells are removed. The scroll shells are attached to the rear face of the rear main bearing. This now becomes the attachment face for the CM seal. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Its up to you but we fit the Christian Marx seals to every engine including my 4a and they dont leak period, I also have the centring tool that I could lend you (FWIW I also have an original factory centring tool as well) I wouldnt go the machining off route at all as Ive had them leak despite very accurate machining and assembly. The original grey Fergy crank didnt have a scroll it had a lip seal from new and they leaked too. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Hi Pete, The 0 84 number is a block and main bearing cap number for identity. If you clean and look on the removable bearing caps for the various mains you should find the corresponding numbers indented there. Obviously the blocks and their mains caps should always be kept and fitted in partnership. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chilliman Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) Quote when the CM lip seal is fitted the scroll seal shells are removed and replaced with..........scroll seal shells!! Not sure where your coming from Roger, you have two options available - if your original alloy scroll seal shells are in good nick & you have the facilities they can be machined to have the added benefit of the vition seal or you buy the kit with it already done like most people do,but either way you still end up with the oil scavenging system as described by Mick above... splitseal.docx Edited January 4, 2020 by Chilliman Added file Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 A slight digression, what’s the best solution for a crank has been machined and has a land rover seal? Is their a better option? Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chilliman Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Got a couple of those myself Iain& I'm not aware of any options other than sticking with the LR seal.... This your new one....? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted January 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 57 minutes ago, Chilliman said: Got a couple of those myself Iain& I'm not aware of any options other than sticking with the LR seal.... This your new one....? Are the LR seals not available in viton ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Chilliman said: This your new one....? Now there’s a question ..........I don’t know. Another investigation required. 33 years and mine and brother in laws memories are a tad......unreliable :-) The reason for the question was VHP has a LR seal.....not leaking, famous last words, but just curious to know if an alternative was available. The crank is only - 010 on all journals. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted January 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Thank you Gents. I cannot see why both a scroll and a lip seal should be necessary. Nowhere else in the engine, gearbox, or drive-train needs two means of keeping it from dripping, and Mad Marx developed the product specifically to not need to take the crank to an engineering shop for a single machining operation, whereas my crank has to go in anyway ..to have it's big ends reground. But hey-ho, I value your opinions., and I can't dispute the cumulative experience - so I have just ordered one. It specifically says its viton seal ..and that I think may well account for its success. The link Peter W. very kindly sent me was to ang-classiccarparts on e- bay and the cost is £80 inc P&P ..which, if I might borrow the centering tool, is the same cost as the LR one & machining, and of course a substantial saving over £168 (or very much more from some !) when bought through one of the usual TR suppliers . Again I thank you all. Pete UPRATED REAR CRANKSHAFT OIL SEAL CONVERSION KIT that would be suitable for the following vehicles : TRIUMPH TR2, TR3, TR3A ; YEARS 1953-1961. TRIUMPH TR4, TR4A ; YEAR 1961-1967. This item is supplied NEW and for reference has the Part No. 060826UR. The kit comprises of an uprated Viton® oil seal which has both high temperature & chemical resistance properties and a pair of machined aluminium oil catcher housings (with a Blue anodised finish). The benefit of this kit is that unlike replacing the standard type rear crankshaft oil seal there is no machining of the crankshaft scroll required. This kit simply bolts into place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roy53 Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 So is there a difference between the ANG one and the MAD MARX one ? comments from users of ANG would be good as we know the MARX users are well pleased. Roy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted January 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) ^ ANG is the retailer, not the part's manufacturer. - - - I'm still looking to buy a set of Main bearings (std size) ..new old stock and made by Vandervell, Glacier / Glyco please. - - - On 1/4/2020 at 3:08 PM, Motorsport Mickey said: The 0 84 number is a block and main bearing cap number for identity. If you clean and look on the removable bearing caps for the various mains you should find the corresponding numbers indented there. Obviously the blocks and their mains caps should always be kept and fitted in partnership. ^ Thanks Mick, I must admit when I first read 084 I wondered what was 0.084" ? But by coincidence of timing / yesterday I was cleaning the main bearing caps and found the matching number from when the caps were originally fitted during manufacture and line bored in this engine block. . ^ the number stamped into the main bearing cap is usually hidden under the bolt head. Likewise on the front cap. - - - I'm now looking at replacing the original fan for a lighter weight one. ^ That's a massive 3kg of spinning mass hanging off the front end of the crankshaft. I'm following Marco's thread on DIY balancing the crankshaft, which has moved on to discussing use of the BMW five blade fan < here >. Stuart recently added " TBH why bother? Why not fit the later TR6 fan that's a multi-blade type, I have the yellow 8 blade version (TR5 early TR6 type) on my 4a and it works very well." As I'd prefer not to go electric, that seems a sensible option ..as it's also plastic and so lightweight. As I also wish to go for the narrow fan-belt and an alternator. All in all I'd very much welcome any suggestion / feedback as to which is the cost effective / sensible route to follow. If I had a lathe, and was familiar with using it, I'd make the fan extension in aluminum and use a propriety pulley off another car. Unless anyone with a lathe volunteers ( Hint, Hint ) I'll have to ask the engineering company to make that 114mm long bobbin / extension piece (left hand side in the above photo). Thanks, Pete. Edited January 5, 2020 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 I bought some other items from ANG (wing fitting kits), competative prices. Wish I had not, the spire nuts were not correct. This may just have been “bad luck” with my first purchase from them, I have not ordered from them again so do not know. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 The ANG version is a rip off of Christians one, I would stay with the Christian Marx one which is backed by race proving. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Sometimes, on first glance, parts may look identical from different suppliers (and often are). But material qualities, tolerances, surface treatments or heat treatments can be sacrificed to skim manufacturing costs. We see that all too often. Bearings, spark-plugs, switches, condensors and points are just a few, and the list can go on. Especially on parts that are hard to replace, like this seal, or can impose a safety risk, like brake components, I prefer to go to the “best available”. An additional advantage is they often fit better. Best regards, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Hi Pete, I will give that an extra thread. Ciao, Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 You pays your money and....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted January 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2020 ..for those who might be interested. ordered on Sunday and delivered in Tuesday morning's post. . ^ very tiny ' shop soiling' scratches seen on the face, but otherwise it looks beautifully made and finished in its very pretty cyan coloured anodizing. The Split seal part number reads M35BTR4. ^ Instructions sheet together with invoice. The price was £79.15 including VAT and carriage. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 7, 2020 Report Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Bfg said: ..for those who might be interested. ordered on Sunday and delivered in Tuesday morning's post. . ^ very tiny ' shop soiling' scratches seen on the face, but otherwise it looks beautifully made and finished in its very pretty cyan coloured anodizing. The Split seal part number reads M35BTR4. ^ Instructions sheet together with invoice. The price was £79.15 including VAT and carriage. Pete So you didnt buy it from TR Shop then? Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 7, 2020 Report Share Posted January 7, 2020 (edited) On 12/20/2019 at 1:26 PM, Bfg said: Sorry Roy, I had to go to the shed to have a look ..but then got bogged down in filthy black sludge and feeler gauges I'm using Carplan engine cleaner and degreaser ..plus a fair amount of elbow grease, washing up brush and paint brush, wire brushes of different type, scouring pad, scraper for gaskets, etc. Mine in the part's washer is pretty filthy, but it's still ok for a first-wash of parts as I filter it through a sheet of 1/2" thick felt to take out the big lumps.! By coincidence, because I'm running low and I'll need to wash everything through again, after machining but before reassembly - I was out to buy a new barrel yesterday. It was £77.57 (inc VAT) for 25ltrs from Motor Parts Direct. I made the mistake of going out in pre-christmas traffic, but I believe that company does offer free delivery on orders over £50 ..via the internet. Pete. Hi Pete, Just to point out that there is a "DO NOT" use in parts cleaners which have a pump, showing in the disclaimers on the rear of the tins on Car Plan degreaser. My thoughts are either it's flash point is rated too low and poses a risk when pumped or it's Tetroyl base attacks any diaphragm used in the pump. If yours is pump used and it hasn't melted it maybe it's the flash point that may be bothersome. Mick Richards Edited January 7, 2020 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike ellis Posted January 7, 2020 Report Share Posted January 7, 2020 Pete, you have a PM. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted January 7, 2020 Report Share Posted January 7, 2020 I have been using this stuff in my parts cleaner fro years without problems. The pump in mine is a simple centrifugal one (I suspect the same as is used in small ponds or large aquariums) no diaphram. Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted January 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said: Hi Pete, Just to point out that there is a "DO NOT" use in parts cleaners which have a pump disclaimer on the rear of the tins on Car Plan degreaser. My thoughts are either it's flash point is rated too low and poses a risk when pumped or it's Tetroyl base attacks any diaphragm used in the pump. If yours is pump used and it hasn't melted it maybe it's the flash point that may be bothersome. Mick Richards Thanks I didn't know that. I bought the parts cleaner some five years ago and went to a trade car parts place and that's what they sold me. Been using it since and the pump has sat submerged all that time. It is flammable ..but slow burns more like meths than petrol. As it's in my 'bike shed' which is my dirty space for cleaning parts, I also how powered wire brush and polish machine in there and I often use a grinder. I think I ought to be careful. I much appreciate the warning. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harlequin Posted January 7, 2020 Report Share Posted January 7, 2020 I use screwfix nonsense heavy duty degreaser in my parts cleaner it's about £9 for 5 litre and works fine George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted January 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) . Good afternoon, just a quick update before I disappear back into the garage for a bit more dismantling and checking. Starting off with cleaning up the components of fan, fan extension and pulley . . I just wanted to see exactly what I have here and to recall how it was assembled, with the view to swapping out the blade for a lighter weight item, replacing the pulley with a narrow belt one, and to consider my options with regard to re-making the extension spigot (presently cast-iron) in aluminium. I took it to the local TSSC club meeting last night and aside from it 3kg mass I think the materials and construction was appreciated mostly for its wonderfully steam-punk style. I'd rather not go for an electric fan, so I'm shopping for the TR6 / GT6 8-blade plastic fan if anyone should happen to have one. Thanks. - - - Aside from that, over the weekend as I was cleaning up the main bearing caps, I photographed this one for your perusal . . The white metal, in just one half-shell fitted into the rear main-bearing cap, had been flaking off. And a number of those flakes can be seen embedded into its corresponding half-shell, which of course was fitted into the bearing seat in the block. Can anyone explain why this disintegration might have happened ? - - - Following on from this, and because the engine's design is unfamiliar to me, and I'll need to be sure that all the oil passages are clear and clean., I looked to see how the oil circulated around the bottom end bearings. . . ^ The light-yellow / black screwdriver (middle of photo) is sitting where the oil pick up pipe with its strainer, and the oil pump are fitted. Engine oil is pumped upwards through a drilling (orange arrows) through the engine block's casting to where the oil filter is fitted on the engine's left hand side (approximated by the second yellow / black screwdriver). The oil circulates through the filter and return (light green arrow) into a gallery / cavity bored the whole length of the distributor side of the engine block. Accordingly there is a core plug into each end of the block. 90-degrees to this cavity are three drillings, across to each main bearing (indicated by the green handled screwdrivers). The block has a bolt with a copper washer, to plug the outside of each of those drillings. There is an oil gallery grove all-around each main bearing (oil also helps dissipate heat) and a drilling through each half-shell to lubricate the bearing itself. Each grove then has another, diagonal and smaller diameter, drilling (indicated by the three red handled screwdrivers) to route some of the pressurised engine oil to lubricate the camshaft bearings (for clarity just two red arrows indicate their general direction). Each (TR4A) plain bearing fitted into the line-boring of the camshaft have holes which must align with the drillings from the main bearings. However I note the holes in the bearings are in fact smaller than the diameter of that diagonal drilling. I'm guessing this is so the accuracy of alignment is not so critical when they're fitted, and that the hole-size in the camshaft bearing is calculated to limit the flow rate. The three bolts, seen to go horizontally through the outside face of the block into each camshaft bearing, are simply there to locate and secure the bearing. There are x3 main bearings, whereas the camshaft has x4 bearings, so the fourth camshaft bearing is lubricated via a diagonal drilling up from the main oil gallery (again those light green lines) and its closing plug is seen as a bolt head just below the petrol pump. From the cylinder head gasket face (rear LHS corner) there is a vertical 1/4" drilling down into the rearmost camshaft bearing. This is to route engine-oil up and into the cylinder head. Intersecting this is another drilling, from the rear face of the cylinder head (again seen as a hex head plug) which takes the engine-oil just a little way forward. And finally, the tiny ; 3/32" (2.4 mm) final drilling - vertically intersects with that (drilling from the rear face), to route the oil upwards and into the rear pedestal onto which the rocker-shaft sits. And then the rocker shaft itself is hollow and that takes the oil forward to each of the rocker arms. Understanding this helps me know what all those bolt heads, through the engine case, do. And then following this somewhat convoluted route ..systematically, will be necessary when I scrub out those oil-way drillings. I'll also re-anneal each of the copper washers used to seal the many hex-head plugs. Pete. Edited January 8, 2020 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 8, 2020 Report Share Posted January 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Bfg said: . Good afternoon, just a quick update before I disappear back into the garage for a bit more dismantling and checking. Starting off with cleaning up the components of fan, fan extension and pulley . . I just wanted to see exactly what I have here and to recall how it was assembled, with the view to swapping out the blade for a lighter weight item, replacing the pulley with a narrow belt one, and to consider my options with regard to re-making the extension spigot (presently cast-iron) in aluminium. I took it to the local TSSC club meeting last night and aside from it 3kg mass I think the materials and construction was appreciated mostly for its wonderfully steam-punk style. I'd rather not go for an electric fan, so I'm shopping for the TR6 / GT6 8-blade plastic fan if anyone should happen to have one. Thanks. - - - Aside from that, over the weekend as I was cleaning up the main bearing caps, I photographed this one for your perusal . . The white metal, in just one half-shell fitted into the rear main-bearing cap, had been flaking off. And a number of those flakes can be seen embedded into its corresponding half-shell, which of course was fitted into the bearing seat in the block. Can anyone explain why this disintegration might have happened ? There used to be a Glacier chart for identifying shell bearing failures. Here is as close as I can find. I would have guessed overheated or corrosion. http://www.tribology.co.uk/services/failure-analysis/how-to-diagnose-plain-bearing-failures/ Cheers Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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