Commission number query

[TimG]

I'm trying to make sense of the Commission number on my newly purchased TR3A. The plate is on the L/H side of bulkhead above the wiper motor & reads TS33788 & engine number is S34681E. My info from the dealer says it was first registered in South Africa in 1962 & imported to UK 2021, with import papers to that effect.  Seeing videos & posts regarding 1960 cars the Commision No starts TS61***. Some cars were assembled in South Africa so perhaps mine was with a Commission number running in a different series. The engine was reconditioned so maybe that is non original. I've not collected the car yet so cannot check on any other numbers. Hope I have not bought a bitsa.

[Lebro]

1st oddity is that the commission No. Plate is normally on the other side (left side viewed from the front.) Above the master cylinders (late TR3 -3A) right hand drive. Are the boot & bonnet hinges on raised plinths, & is there a fixed horizontal (metal) rear seat ?

Bob

[stuart]

South African built cars are a law unto themselves when it comes to numbering and also positioning of com plates. Mike Ellis will be able to tell you more about them. They are often a bitsa as they used up parts from earlier series cars.

Stuart.

[TimG]

Bob, no the hinges are not on raised plinths. Cannot check but I dont think there is a horizontal shelf behind seats. The Comm no is riveted to a screwed in unpainted metal plate behind the wiper presumably covering pedal box hole 0n LHD cars. The disc on the windscreen is the 2016 South African "MOT". I have 2 sets of SA plates.

[Lebro]

Then the body is not 1960's, & the commission No. (if a UK one) would be lower than 60000.

The painted panel with comm No. on would not be there on a later car, unless it started off as a Left hand drive, which is unlikely if from SA.

Only pre 60000 cars had the removable panel.  You are missing the two brass number plates which would have given more clues as to age. (above the battery)

It's probably a 1958 ish TR3A body I would guess.    It looks nice enough though !

Bob

Edited March 15, 2023 by Lebro

[Hamish]

Mine is nov 1959 and TS 613** and has the blanking  plate on the bulkhead by the wiper motor. 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Looks like it has replacement outer sills.   They are flat along their length rather than curved to copy the profile of the door skin.

That said my car has that issue until recently when the man who knows how to fixed the profile for me.

Edited March 15, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Don H.]

I love the esoterica of oddball cars -- comes with the territory of a TR3B driver, I guess.

Yours is a real oddball though, @TimG.  Would you be willing to post a more detailed image of those commission number plates?  

Yes, the engine number and commission number look a lot earlier than a UK-built car would have in that period.  And the bodyshell would be different too.  But as Stuart notes, CKD kits and far-flung assembly can break a lot of rules.  One also notes no bodyshell or build number tags on the bulkhead, likely another result of South African assembly.  

I recall a a pdf file of someone's first hand recollections of the South African automobile industry, possibly shared on this forum ten years or so ago.  It was quite interesting, and might be useful to you -- I'll see if I've archived a copy.

@mike elliswill no doubt weigh in with a ton of information -- looking forward to that.

[TimG]

I've not collected the car yet so cannot easily check on any other numbers. If needed I can ask dealer to take photo

[mike ellis]

Hi Tim,

Your car is a 1958 TR3A sent out in CKD form for assembly at Motor Assemblies in Durban.  It is in a batch of known numbers that went to SA but many were not assembled for up to three years which is why yours appears as 1960.  Somewhere under the bonnet there would have been a Motor Assemblies number, the one for your car being STR1027.  There probably would not have been any body numbers that we see over here. That engine number has been with the car a long time but would probably not be original and should Start TS although it can sometimes be hard to make out.

As Stuart says SA cars are a law unto themselves both regarding original build (there had to be a significant amount of local content) and the varying quality of restorations.

A car possibly from the same batch is TS33761 which has been over here about ten years and is a couple of miles down the road from me.

Mike

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by mike ellis
Clarify engine information

[RAHTR4]

Hi Tim,

You have a P.M.

Regards, Richard

[TimG]

I've not collected the car yet so cannot easily check on any other numbers. If needed I can ask dealer to take photo.

Mike & Richard thanks a lot for your info. My mind is a little more settled now over the anomolies & it seems unlikely to be "wrong un".

The interior is a little scruffy with non standard indicator stalk. The gauge panel is upholstered not crackle black pointing to a SA built car but does not have the chromed bolts on scuttle for Aero screens. The seats have been reupholstered so the pleats on seat back of SA cars may have been deleted as rear panel of cabin.

   Tim

[mike ellis]

Aeroscreen mounting bolts were deleted at TS32833.  Could the indicator stalk suggest R&P steering?

The presence of three rather than four pegs on the door is also common to SA cars.

Mike

[Hamish]

Looks a lovely car that you can really enjoy. 
Have a fun 2023 and beyond. 

[TimG]

Yes it has rack & pinion but I dont know what it came from. The upper column needs new bushes & is one of the jobs to be sorted before I collect it. Even with sloppy bushes it still steers fine. It had an MOT in Sep 21 & has done hardly any miles since so how it passed is strange.

[billy l]

Hi Tim, you may find this article interesting, I can't get them to load up in sequence.  The photo is of my recently sold car and it shows the local build plate TR609 situated behind the master cylinder, Aeroscreen mountings were always fitted on SA built cars. Cheers, Bill.

Edited March 16, 2023 by billy l

[tr graham]

Tim you have PM

graham

[TimG]

Billy thanks for that, amazingly clean underbonnet. As others have said SA built cars do not follow a template so perhaps they could not find the drill & left off the Aero screen mounts though Dennis Cook info bottom page 42 says they were deleted from TS32833 as does Mike Ellis.

[mike ellis]

If you continue reading Dennis Cook then says 'but all SA cars had aeroscreen mounts'.  I have checked my friend's car which is very close in commission number to yours and it does have the mounts.  We are all still learning!

[ken foster]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:21 PM, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

man who knows how to fixed the profile for me.

Interesting... care to share the method he used?

ken

 

[markaluge]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:10 PM, Lebro said:

Only pre 60000 cars had the removable panel.  You are missing the two brass number plates which would have given more clues as to age. (above the battery)

What was on these two brass plates? They are missing from my car and I would like to fit replacements.
Regards Mark

[Lebro]

From Bill Piggot's book "Original Triumph TR"

TR2/3/3A bodies carry two numbers, both on small brass plates screwed to the front bulkhead just above the battery tray. One of these plates has an "EB" prefix and a number near, but usualy slightly higher than the car's commission number. The other plate has a straight six- or seven figure number with neither prefix nor suffix. Only this latter number appears in the factory build records held by the BMIHT, no records relating to the "EB" number being known to survive. It is believed that the six- or seven figure number was allocated to the bare bodyshell by Mulliners, the manufacturers, whereas the "EB" number was a Standard-Truimph one allocated to the complete trimmed body

Bob

[Kiwifrog]

15 hours ago, ken foster said:

Interesting... care to share the method he used?

ken

 

I imagine it would be a case of small but deep  v cuts and welds to get the sill to follow the door bottom. The other option would be the use of a shrinker/stretcher after straightening the returns but that is a fair amount of work, it would be easier to make a new set with the correct shape 

Edited March 18, 2023 by Kiwifrog

[Ian Vincent]

1 hour ago, Kiwifrog said:

I imagine it would be a case of small but deep  v cuts and welds to get the sill to follow the door bottom. The other option would be the use of a shrinker/stretcher after straightening the returns but that is a fair amount of work, it would be easier to make a new set with the correct shape 

I used an angle grinder with a cutting disc to separate the front face of the sill from the top and bottom horizontal sections over about a third of the length from each end, shaped the flanges to the appropriate curve and then welded them up.

Rgds Ian

[Kiwifrog]

2 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

I used an angle grinder with a cutting disc to separate the front face of the sill from the top and bottom horizontal sections over about a third of the length from each end, shaped the flanges to the appropriate curve and then welded them up.

Rgds Ian

That would be a much cleaner and easier option that what I suggested