That was a year that was..

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, stuart said:

Just try when your driving with the cover off and overdrive engaged to just push that lever slightly forwards and see if the overdrive does engage. Obviously oil levels do affect overdrive operation but it wasnt down that far was it?

Stuart.

Hi Stuart, thank you again.  No the gearbox oil level was a little down but only by 30 or 40 ml, measured with a family size syringe. 

As you suggest I've tried pushing forward on the operating lever, but with the back wheels off the ground rather than when driving down the road.

I tried this in each of the three upper gears, pushing hard forward with a screwdriver blade on the operating lever, but the overdrive did not seem to operate. There was no suggestion of the drive-shaft rotating at a different rate and although the speedo was only reading 10mph, there was no sign of rev's dropping when overdrive solenoid was activated.  

Having read of an air-lock, but having not yet identified what an accumulator, nor where a choked air bleed might be  ..in must be the worse workshop manual I've ever used, I've subsequently tried to bleed the bubbles out of the operating valve hole.  If only because I reason that anything hydraulically operated doesn't work very well with air bubbles in the system ...

 

Without the ball valve in place, I've been running the engine at tick-over speeds in forth gear, with and without the overdrive switched in.  The book tells me that it is correct that oil wells out of this hole if the pump is working.  Using the syringe I've been pulling out what comes up.

After doing that three times I tried the overdrive again, with the ball valve, plunger, spring and cap back in place ..but still Katie's overdrive doesn't appear to be working.

Lifting those components out again, I started and engaged overdrive in forth and clearly are still bubbles in there. Surely that means there are bubbles within the closed hydraulics from the pump, &/or else the pump is sucking in air ? . . .

^ mostly the bubbles are smaller than these, but any bubbles don't seem right to me. 

Admittedly I might be on the wrong track so I'll now try reading the Haynes manual.  Perhaps that's written in clearer English than Triumph's own WSM.  I'll also do a search through this websites pages and see what else I can find.   The link I saw to Buckeye  threw my old computer into a right wobbly (..opened numerous tabs), so I'll need to dig out the horrid HP with its later windows version on it before I try that link again.

I don't know anything about overdrive units, or how they work, so please excuse me if I'm not asking the right questions or otherwise seeing the obvious. 

Pete

 

[Tom Chatterley- Cox]

26 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Hi Stuart, thank you again.  No the gearbox oil level was a little down but only by 30 or 40 ml, measured with a family size syringe. 

As you suggest I've tried pushing forward on the operating lever, but with the back wheels off the ground rather than when driving down the road.

I tried this in each of the three upper gears, pushing hard forward with a screwdriver blade on the operating lever, but the overdrive did not seem to operate. There was no suggestion of the drive-shaft rotating at a different rate and although the speedo was only reading 10mph, there was no sign of rev's dropping when overdrive solenoid was activated.  

Having read of an air-lock, but having not yet identified what an accumulator, nor where a choked air bleed might be  ..in must be the worse workshop manual I've ever used, I've subsequently tried to bleed the bubbles out of the operating valve hole.  If only because I reason that anything hydraulically operated doesn't work very well with air bubbles in the system ...

 

Without the ball valve in place, I've been running the engine at tick-over speeds in forth gear, with and without the overdrive switched in.  The book tells me that it is correct that oil wells out of this hole if the pump is working.  Using the syringe I've been pulling out what comes up.

After doing that three times I tried the overdrive again, with the ball valve, plunger, spring and cap back in place ..but still Katie's overdrive doesn't appear to be working.

Lifting those components out again, I started and engaged overdrive in forth and clearly are still bubbles in there. Surely that means there are bubbles within the closed hydraulics from the pump, &/or else the pump is sucking in air ? . . .

^ mostly the bubbles are smaller than these, but any bubbles don't seem right to me. 

Admittedly I might be on the wrong track so I'll now try reading the Haynes manual.  Perhaps that's written in clearer English than Triumph's own WSM.  I'll also do a search through this websites pages and see what else I can find.   The link I saw to Buckeye  threw my old computer into a right wobbly (..opened numerous tabs), so I'll need to dig out the horrid HP with its later windows version on it before I try that link again.

I don't know anything about overdrive units, or how they work, so please excuse me if I'm not asking the right questions or otherwise seeing the obvious. 

Pete

 

Hi Pete,

When you push the operating lever (I presume you're referring to the one on the same side as the valve with the red paint), is there any resistance or does it feel like you're pushing against nothing? You should be able to feel a "barrier" of pressure that once overcome, the lever moves quite easily (and the overdrive should engage). If there isn't any pressure in the system then you wont feel anything. The fact that oil is pumping out of the valve with the plug removes suggests the pump is working, but the accumulator may not be generating enough pressure to engage the OD. 

Tom

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

Hi Stuart, thank you again.  No the gearbox oil level was a little down but only by 30 or 40 ml, measured with a family size syringe. 

As you suggest I've tried pushing forward on the operating lever, but with the back wheels off the ground rather than when driving down the road.

I tried this in each of the three upper gears, pushing hard forward with a screwdriver blade on the operating lever, but the overdrive did not seem to operate. There was no suggestion of the drive-shaft rotating at a different rate and although the speedo was only reading 10mph, there was no sign of rev's dropping when overdrive solenoid was activated.  

Having read of an air-lock, but having not yet identified what an accumulator, nor where a choked air bleed might be  ..in must be the worse workshop manual I've ever used, I've subsequently tried to bleed the bubbles out of the operating valve hole.  If only because I reason that anything hydraulically operated doesn't work very well with air bubbles in the system ...

 

Without the ball valve in place, I've been running the engine at tick-over speeds in forth gear, with and without the overdrive switched in.  The book tells me that it is correct that oil wells out of this hole if the pump is working.  Using the syringe I've been pulling out what comes up.

After doing that three times I tried the overdrive again, with the ball valve, plunger, spring and cap back in place ..but still Katie's overdrive doesn't appear to be working.

Lifting those components out again, I started and engaged overdrive in forth and clearly are still bubbles in there. Surely that means there are bubbles within the closed hydraulics from the pump, &/or else the pump is sucking in air ? . . .

^ mostly the bubbles are smaller than these, but any bubbles don't seem right to me. 

Admittedly I might be on the wrong track so I'll now try reading the Haynes manual.  Perhaps that's written in clearer English than Triumph's own WSM.  I'll also do a search through this websites pages and see what else I can find.   The link I saw to Buckeye  threw my old computer into a right wobbly (..opened numerous tabs), so I'll need to dig out the horrid HP with its later windows version on it before I try that link again.

I don't know anything about overdrive units, or how they work, so please excuse me if I'm not asking the right questions or otherwise seeing the obvious. 

Pete

 

Does these pdf files help?   Copied links to Buckeye Triumph

 

A+Type+Overdrive+Part+IV.pdf A+Type+Overdrive+Part+V.pdf

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

Hi Stuart, thank you again.  No the gearbox oil level was a little down but only by 30 or 40 ml, measured with a family size syringe. 

As you suggest I've tried pushing forward on the operating lever, but with the back wheels off the ground rather than when driving down the road.

I tried this in each of the three upper gears, pushing hard forward with a screwdriver blade on the operating lever, but the overdrive did not seem to operate. There was no suggestion of the drive-shaft rotating at a different rate and although the speedo was only reading 10mph, there was no sign of rev's dropping when overdrive solenoid was activated.  

Having read of an air-lock, but having not yet identified what an accumulator, nor where a choked air bleed might be  ..in must be the worse workshop manual I've ever used, I've subsequently tried to bleed the bubbles out of the operating valve hole.  If only because I reason that anything hydraulically operated doesn't work very well with air bubbles in the system ...

 

Without the ball valve in place, I've been running the engine at tick-over speeds in forth gear, with and without the overdrive switched in.  The book tells me that it is correct that oil wells out of this hole if the pump is working.  Using the syringe I've been pulling out what comes up.

After doing that three times I tried the overdrive again, with the ball valve, plunger, spring and cap back in place ..but still Katie's overdrive doesn't appear to be working.

Lifting those components out again, I started and engaged overdrive in forth and clearly are still bubbles in there. Surely that means there are bubbles within the closed hydraulics from the pump, &/or else the pump is sucking in air ? . . .

^ mostly the bubbles are smaller than these, but any bubbles don't seem right to me. 

Admittedly I might be on the wrong track so I'll now try reading the Haynes manual.  Perhaps that's written in clearer English than Triumph's own WSM.  I'll also do a search through this websites pages and see what else I can find.   The link I saw to Buckeye  threw my old computer into a right wobbly (..opened numerous tabs), so I'll need to dig out the horrid HP with its later windows version on it before I try that link again.

I don't know anything about overdrive units, or how they work, so please excuse me if I'm not asking the right questions or otherwise seeing the obvious. 

Pete

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Bfg]

Hi Tom,

what is, and where is the accumulator.  I cannot see it listed in the exploded parts diagram, so I assume it to be a number of components which when assembled go by that name. ?

The lever is the one on the RHS of the overdrive. I appears to have about 1/8" movement against light pressure and then it doesn't move any further. 

Doing this while looking over the gearbox to the solenoid - it's clear that this RHS lever is directly connected to the lever activated by the solenoid.  Although I've not adjusted the LHS / solenoids lever - it's now making sense, as it's this RH one which aligns with the 3/16" hole.   So when pushed forward on the RHS lever it duplicates the action of the solenoid's lever and then cannot come any further because of the solenoid unit itself.   Understanding this helps me make sense of what Stuart said about the solenoid's gasket being left out.   There appears to be no  gasket under the solenoid on this overdrive unit.  But it had been working great for the past six months.

cheers, Pete

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

2 hours ago, Bfg said:

Hi Stuart, thank you again.  No the gearbox oil level was a little down but only by 30 or 40 ml, measured with a family size syringe. 

As you suggest I've tried pushing forward on the operating lever, but with the back wheels off the ground rather than when driving down the road.

I tried this in each of the three upper gears, pushing hard forward with a screwdriver blade on the operating lever, but the overdrive did not seem to operate. There was no suggestion of the drive-shaft rotating at a different rate and although the speedo was only reading 10mph, there was no sign of rev's dropping when overdrive solenoid was activated.  

Having read of an air-lock, but having not yet identified what an accumulator, nor where a choked air bleed might be  ..in must be the worse workshop manual I've ever used, I've subsequently tried to bleed the bubbles out of the operating valve hole.  If only because I reason that anything hydraulically operated doesn't work very well with air bubbles in the system ...

 

Without the ball valve in place, I've been running the engine at tick-over speeds in forth gear, with and without the overdrive switched in.  The book tells me that it is correct that oil wells out of this hole if the pump is working.  Using the syringe I've been pulling out what comes up.

After doing that three times I tried the overdrive again, with the ball valve, plunger, spring and cap back in place ..but still Katie's overdrive doesn't appear to be working.

Lifting those components out again, I started and engaged overdrive in forth and clearly are still bubbles in there. Surely that means there are bubbles within the closed hydraulics from the pump, &/or else the pump is sucking in air ? . . .

^ mostly the bubbles are smaller than these, but any bubbles don't seem right to me. 

Admittedly I might be on the wrong track so I'll now try reading the Haynes manual.  Perhaps that's written in clearer English than Triumph's own WSM.  I'll also do a search through this websites pages and see what else I can find.   The link I saw to Buckeye  threw my old computer into a right wobbly (..opened numerous tabs), so I'll need to dig out the horrid HP with its later windows version on it before I try that link again.

I don't know anything about overdrive units, or how they work, so please excuse me if I'm not asking the right questions or otherwise seeing the obvious. 

Pete

 

Read Page 3 of 11 in sheets IV. It mentions air bubbles and cleaning the long valve that is under the nut/ball/spring you are accessing on the RH side top.

[Bfg]

Thanks Peter,  I haven't yet looked at the pdf's you kindly posted for me, but I will do.

I've just had a good conversation with Tom Chatterley-Cox, who was very patient with me and helpful in his explanations of the operation of these overdrive unit. He's explained that the hydraulics are not wholly a closed pressure system and as excessive pressure is shed by the valve - it would not be unusual for bubbles to come out from it. 

Still he has suggested that it would OK to pump more oil out of that valve's hole, and we spoke of a clear pipe inserted into the threaded hole to pump through perhaps 1/4 litre of gearbox oil in case any debris was causing or contributing to the problem.

Furthermore and encouragingly, he's suggested the issue may simply be that the solenoid lever may have slipped around on the shaft just a tad, and so although the electrics and hydraulics are good - the lever simply isn't moving quite as far as it should.  This of course corresponds with what Stuart was saying about the gasket under the solenoid effecting the adjustment.   He, Tom, has recommended I undo the solenoid's operating lever and then to test the overdrive's operation by pushing forward on the LHS operating lever.  This can be done with the rear wheels off the ground. If the overdrive works again, then it would just be a matter of readjusting that lever.     The solenoid not having a gasket under it is not a problem, and may only have been there as a shock absorber, perhaps noise insulation so that owner's didn't hear the clunk of engaging.

Anyway I'll try what's been suggested and let you know.

cheers, Pete

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, Bfg said:

.. he's suggested the issue may simply be that the solenoid lever may have slipped around on the shaft just a tad, and so although the electrics and hydraulics are good - the lever simply isn't moving quite as far as it should.  This of course corresponds with what Stuart was saying about the gasket under the solenoid effecting its adjustment.   He, Tom, has recommended I undo the solenoid's operating lever and then to test the overdrive's operation by pushing forward on the LHS operating lever.  This can be done with the rear wheels off the ground. If the overdrive works again, then it would just be a matter of readjusting that lever.

Tried that and the overdrive is still not working.

When pushing the RHS lever forward, one can feel a little free play (light spring load) and then firmer pressure. The lever moved very much further than with the solenoid's lever connected, which was stopping against the bottom of the solenoid.

Tom had also talked about a circlip inside, possibly having come out of its groove. I guess looking at the exploded diagram this might be either of those retaining the trust race.   Must admit - I was hoping that whatever the issue was.. it wouldn't have involved pulling the gearbox out yet again.

Pete

[stuart]

Pete the only reason I mentioned the gasket was the fact that omitting it was enough to alter the adjustment just enough to prevent engagement.

The failing circlip is a possible, Ive seen new ones break too

Stuart.

[Bfg]

Got that Stuart, I had hoped that the same (maladjustment) might have happened here.

I'll try pumping oil out via the valve hole in the hope that it may help. And then I'll try the overdrive at road speeds to see if tick-over speeds isn't enough oil-pump pressure. And I'll read what Buckeye suggests ..but otherwise I'm wide open to options right now.

Thank you,  Pete

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Bfg

[Nigel C]

12 hours ago, Bfg said:

Got that Stuart, I had hoped that the same (maladjustment) might have happened here.

I'll try pumping oil out via the valve hole in the hope that it may help. And then I'll try the overdrive at road speeds to see if tick-over speeds isn't enough oil-pump pressure. And I'll read what Buckeye suggests ..but otherwise I'm wide open to options right now.

Thank you,  Pete

 

 

have to say I thought tick over might be a problem for pressure....but I only have limited knowledge of A types boxes anyway

[Charlie D]

Pete,

When I first tried my overdrive after a 40 year rebuild it did not work. I removed the filter, cleaned it up and it worked for a bit and then stopped again.

In frustration I just switched the switch up and down like a madman for 30 seconds while driving along and it sprung into action, and has worked ever since.

However, after only 2000 miles it seems unlikely that a clogged filter is your problem. But you never know.

Charlie

[Bfg]

Thank you Nigel and Charlie, and again to Stuart and Peter, to my friend Rich who phoned me in support, and especially to Tom Cox who I called again today for a second round of advice.   GREAT NEWS is that the overdrive now appears to be working, albeit spinning away inside a breeze shaken and quite chilly poly-tunnel rather than yet tested on the road.

Today, Following clearer advice in the Haynes manual, I fished the operating valve out with a bent piece of wire . . .

  

^ That to me is an odd looking valve, but I'm sure there's good reason for that. The bottom end, of the plain shanked length, is closed off but the drilling inside this tube otherwise goes all the way to the bottom. You'll see the small hole by my index finger which needs to be clear.  After blowing through that, and it appeared to be clear, I washed it out inside and out in petrol.  It is possible that a tiny flake of something was laying across the inside of that hole, but I cannot say for sure.  

 

^ While that was out, I found a length of clear pipe with a sleeve of rubber pipe on the valve-cap-hole's end to seal it, and ran the car up to speed in top gear.  Fine bubbles came out but surprising little trickle of oil, even at 2500rpm  ..I was getting braver doing that sort of speed (50mph) in such a confined space with a garden seat and brick wall in front of me. 

This is when I phone Tom again.  He reassured me that ; oil coming out showed the pumps was working, and they tend to work or not. And that the slow rate did  seem rather slow but it was pressure rather than flow which counts.   Next, if it didn't work.. would be to find a pressure gauge and check what it read. Above 100psi and it should just about work, 200psi would be much better.  And if the pressure was Ok then things pointed to a mechanical fault ..and most likely the circlip (item 21 in the parts manual, page 2-302) on the thrust race which has failed or come out.   Without that - the thrust ring assembly (item 19) can move rather than it engaging the overdrive. 

It's so helpful when a kind man explains what should be happening and why it may not.  Thank you Tom.  I'm close to the end of my tether after a catalogues of 'experiences' with this car.

I'm surprised at the dirty state of the oil after just 2000 or so miles, so I'll order some more and change it very soon.

In the meantime, I reassembled the operating valve and tried it again ..using the lever on the RHS, and with the solenoid lever still disconnected, the overdrive engaged..  and although the revs didn't drop (because there's no load on the spinning rear wheels) the speedometer showed a marked increase.  As you might imagine I was delighted.

So what was the issue ? . . .

• I get the impression that the solenoid's operating lever was not moving far enough, just a tad out of adjustment, perhaps having slipped on the cross shaft.
• One of the solenoid's two mounting screws was a little loose. It tightened up, by screwdriver, more than 1/2 a turn. 
• I'm not sure where it came from or if it were part of the problem, but I caught a fleeting glimpse of a tiny metallic flake inside the operating valve, when I was flushing it out in petrol. 
• I think Nigel's observation that tick-over rev's might not give sufficient pressure (to overcome the eight springs on the thrust ring assembly) might be right.  Taking the engine up to 2000 rpm, in top gear - clearly registered the overdrive engagement on the speedo.

I'll now reset the solenoid's lever and try the car on the road.  I need to shop for groceries anyway.  In case that lever needs slight adjusting, I'll just rest the rear half of the gearbox cover in place while I do that. 

My gratitude to those who supported and educated me through this episode.  A tid-bit of information from here and there and between us we got the hoped for result !

Thank You. Pete

- - -

Postscript :  the overdrive now works again on the road.  According to the Haynes Manual one might have checked the current across the solenoid to ensure that when switches the current reduces to a 2amps holding current, rather than 15 - 20 amps as the solenoid is activated.  I don't know how to do that measurement, but the ammeter is not showing a discernible discharge when the overdrive is engage ..which I would expect it to if there were 15 or 20 being drawn, so I guess then the solenoid's lever arm is now adjusted OK.  

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Bfg

[Charlie D]

38 minutes ago, Bfg said:

I'm surprised at the dirty state of the oil after just 2000 or so miles, so I'll order some more and change it very soon

And check the filter while you are at it. (Undo the big nut on the bottom, but you probably have to do that to drain the oil anyway.)

I did wonder why my fix of switching the overdrive on and off quickly solved my problem and my only explanation was that there may have been some dirt causing some blockage somewhere and the rapid on/off/on/off shook it into submission and broke it up. Maybe the same hole in the valve on mine was clogged.

Charlie.

[james christie]

15 minutes ago, Charlie D said:

16 minutes ago, Charlie D said:

I did wonder why my fix of switching the overdrive on and off quickly solved my problem

It’s worth taking the ‘Overdrive’ switch apart and cleaning it properly. They don’t have the best of reputations for reliability, the contacts get a bit oxidised/dusty. Easy evening job - and you don’t have to get under the car!

james

[Charlie D]

Hello James,

In my case the switch was working fine. The solenoid was going in and out like a piston on the Flying Scotsman. I think it was purely the pulsating oil pressure that did the trick.

I do understand what you mean though. That’s where an indicator light in parallel with the solenoid comes in useful. Quickly rules out any electrical fault up to the solenoid.

Charlie.

[Nigel C]

8 hours ago, Bfg said:

Thank you Nigel and Charlie, and again to Stuart and Peter, to my friend Rich who phoned me in support, and especially to Tom Cox who I called again today for a second round of advice.   GREAT NEWS is that the overdrive now appears to be working, albeit spinning away inside a breeze shaken and quite chilly poly-tunnel rather than yet tested on the road.

Today, Following clearer advice in the Haynes manual, I fished the operating valve out with a bent piece of wire . . .

  

^ That to me is an odd looking valve, but I'm sure there's good reason for that. The bottom end, of the plain shanked length, is closed off but the drilling inside this tube otherwise goes all the way to the bottom. You'll see the small hole by my index finger which needs to be clear.  After blowing through that, and it appeared to be clear, I washed it out inside and out in petrol.  It is possible that a tiny flake of something was laying across the inside of that hole, but I cannot say for sure.  

 

^ While that was out, I found a length of clear pipe with a sleeve of rubber pipe on the valve-cap-hole's end to seal it, and ran the car up to speed in top gear.  Fine bubbles came out but surprising little trickle of oil, even at 2500rpm  ..I was getting braver doing that sort of speed (50mph) in such a confined space with a garden seat and brick wall in front of me. 

This is when I phone Tom again.  He reassured me that ; oil coming out showed the pumps was working, and they tend to work or not. And that the slow rate did  seem rather slow but it was pressure rather than flow which counts.   Next, if it didn't work.. would be to find a pressure gauge and check what it read. Above 100psi and it should just about work, 200psi would be much better.  And if the pressure was Ok then things pointed to a mechanical fault ..and most likely the circlip (item 21 in the parts manual, page 2-302) on the thrust race which has failed or come out.   Without that - the thrust ring assembly (item 19) can move rather than it engaging the overdrive. 

It's so helpful when a kind man explains what should be happening and why it may not.  Thank you Tom.  I'm close to the end of my tether after a catalogues of 'experiences' with this car.

I'm surprised at the dirty state of the oil after just 2000 or so miles, so I'll order some more and change it very soon.

In the meantime, I reassembled the operating valve and tried it again ..using the lever on the RHS, and with the solenoid lever still disconnected, the overdrive engaged..  and although the revs didn't drop (because there's no load on the spinning rear wheels) the speedometer showed a marked increase.  As you might imagine I was delighted.

So what was the issue ? . . .

• I get the impression that the solenoid's operating lever was not moving far enough, just a tad out of adjustment, perhaps having slipped on the cross shaft .
• I'm not sure where it came from or if it were part of the problem, but I caught a fleeting glimpse of a tiny metallic flake inside the operating valve, when I was flushing it out in petrol. 
• I think Nigel's observation that tick-over rev's might not give sufficient pressure (to overcome the eight springs on the thrust ring assembly) might be right.  Taking the engine up to 2000 rpm, in top gear - clearly registered the overdrive engagement on the speedo.

I'll now reset the solenoid's lever and try the car on the road.  I need to shop for groceries anyway.  In case that lever needs slight adjusting, I'll just rest the rear half of the gearbox cover in place while I do that. 

My gratitude to those who supported and educated me through this episode.  A tid-bit of information from here and there and between us we got the hoped for result !

Thank You. Pete

 

 

just watch your clothing when driving with part of the tunnel removed; don't want to end being drawn in further than you already have!

[Bfg]

Katie seems to be afflicted with annoying (to me !) little issues, one after another. . .

^ the spring coming out from under the gear-lever cap was one of them.. The car still driveable like this but with a very floppy gear change.  I removed the rear cup screw and just loosened the pin going through across-wise, and was then able to wind it back in using a pair of long nosed pliers and a screwdriver (to hold the bottom end of the spring up ..so it could turn clockwise without snagging).    I hadn't touched it, when I had the gearbox cover off to adjust the solenoid relay's lever, so I can't explain why it happened, just that it did.

 

^ this was another.. The high-tension lead between the coil and the distributor cap (aka the 'king lead') has a slit in it, or more correctly several close together although just the one was cut down to this lead's silicon core.

I spotted it a week ago, when I had the spark plugs out to clean them, which I needed to do to assess their colour in accordance to the carburettors' adjustment.  This in turn followed comments that Katie  smelt like a TR6 - when I turned up into our local group's breakfast meet several weeks ago (ie., Rich suggested - it was running rich). This in turn was subsequent to fitting the reconditioned carburettors,  so I'd borrowed a flow meter and tried to balance the SU carbs.  At the time I just taped this HT lead up, but I've now replaced it for a new one (with copper multi-wire core ..which I prefer). 

Last Thursday., when I went down to the East Saxon group's club meeting, the car appeared to be running pretty awfully ..but then it was also p***ing down with rain, and I had the roof on.  That's 23 miles for me, so it's the furthest I've driven the TR with a roof on (either the fabric one or Katie 's fibreglass Surrey top).  With unfamiliar noise levels it was difficult for me to assess anything much regarding carburettor tuning. 

On the way back from the meeting the roads were wet but the rain had cleared.  Nevertheless some of the finest brains in Essex had decided to close the A12 again, whereby all traffic is diverted into the north of Colchester, around it, and then out the north-east side of the city to Ardleigh, Manningtree to cross the River Stour, before cutting up to the south side of Ipswich.  Of course I live on the north side of Ipswich, Suffolk.! 

It was only another 8 miles added to the journey (a third as far again !) but it takes another 20 minutes more because of the nature of those country roads.  I was not in the most relaxed of moods, in part because this diversion has happened to me half a dozen or more times too many ..over the past two years of going to this group's meeting, but also because I happened to be the last to leave the pub. I'd lost the car keys.   I eventually found them wedged behind a radiator, next to the seat where I'd original taken my coat off.  Hey ho., Pete's a plonker.

And then, just because Essex is such a nice an d welcoming place.. the assigned diversion route had a mobile police speed-trap.  I was one of a stream of cars driving along at 34mph (when checked on the gps) through a sleepy country village.  Of course the next village has a 40mph speed limit ..and all the houses otherwise along that stretch of road cope with a 60mph.  But here where it 30mph we ought to have been watching our speedometers rather than the wet and dark road and any pedestrians who might be dancing along from puddle to puddle at 11:30pm on a cold and miserable night.  Perhaps Britain's finest think it lessens traffic noise, with the car in 3rd gear.?     Anyway, bottom line is that again I couldn't sensibly assess the carburettor's tune during that drive.  

As it happens last week I'd decided to try Katie with a new set of plugs. I'd not changed them in the two years since I bought the car and as I was trying to assess the carb's tune I thought it easier to start with bright steel. The plugs fitted were NGK BP6HS and as she's always been just a little sooty, I opted to try a set of BP5HS.  Without changing anything else driving across to and back from Hedingham again yesterday, and following the rough running on Thursday evening, I wasn't expecting any improvement, but a new set of plugs following a 65mile round trip ought to give me a much clearer idea of what was going on. . .

The car was frustratingly lumpy driving across there, but the weather was nice and the driving across country pretty easy. However.., after an enjoyable day there I headed back, again in no rush. Just a few miles later the engine cut out completely.  The place that happened was soon after a sharp left handed corner, up an incline through a cutting between fields.  With no more that 50 foot visibility in either direction it wasn't a comfortable place to stop and absolutely no grass verge to get off the road. If I'd tried to roll back down the hill, then I'd be rolling down to that blind hard left-hander corner.  It's at times like this you're glad you've fitted hazard warning lights and LED bulbs.

Open the bonnet, again a useful thing that it's bright red, and there's fuel in the pump, fuel in the in-line filter inbetween that and the carbs, and no fuel flooded out anywhere.   There's also no oil nor water all over the place or under the car.  Electrics then, the HT leads and low tension leads on the coil all appear to be fine, unclip the cap and there appears to be no spark happening at the points.  Power to the ignition, if I remember correctly comes from the ignition switch. I try to twist under the dash to have a look, but I don't want to be sitting there with my legs out in the road for very long. I can't see anything wrong but I try the car and she starts.

Let's get out of this cutting and off the side of a hill.  Of course as I pull away a car comes right up behind.  The instruments check OK except of the ammeter which is now reading off the scale - over charging.  I can't do much about it in that situation, so not wanting to melt wiring nor boil the battery I put the headlamps on and then also the heater's fan blower to burn off some of the current.  With a car up your jacksie it's not terribly easy to find somewhere to pull off, and in any case there were only small private driveways to be had. a mile later I spot a turning into a field on the other side of the road, hastily indicate and finally get to pull off the main road.  Big, deep water filled pot holes don't make it a smooth landing.  

Open the bonnet, check the dynamo's wiring connections, tucked in behind the exhaust down-pipe's heat shield. Naturally they are hot but no signs of looseness nor melted insulation. I feel the battery leads for excess heat. Nope they feel fine.  Next I've got a piece of carpet out and am kneeling next to the driver's foot-well, trying to see if anything is amiss with the connections on the back of the ammeter. I'm glad to be carrying an LED lamp, even though the evening is light there's not a lot of light behind a dashboard (..aside from the red glow of the oil warning and ammeter warning light bulbs).  Nothing seems astray, nor any sign or smells of melted insulation. 

30 miles to go, 5:30 in the evening, I decide to carry on back with the headlamps and heater's fan blowing as required to try and save the battery. Keeping the engine revs down as low as I can, I head off and the ammeter is still reading high, but at least it's not off the scale. Things settle down at 40mph in top gear and overdrive and I turn the headlamps off.  after another couple of miles I turn the fan blower off and the ammeter settles back down to reading its normal 5amp charge.  It's then fine all the way home even when pushed to 3500rpm. 

Today . .

 

^ Number 1 plug is sotty, #3 a little too sotty still but just starting to turn brown, #4 plug a little less sotty still and turning brown.  Oh yeah.. #2 light soot around the steel threaded rim but otherwise pretty much unused.  There's a clue there somewhere !

     

^ number 2 HT lead as it was in the cap.  I think the dark marked hole through the orange insulation was where it had been fitted sometime in the past, and the dark marked hole through the white insulation was where it had been refitted, and has been like this since I bought the car.  As I said I've not touched the distributor or the HT leads, aside from routing them more neatly, since I bought the car, although I did fit new connectors to the low-tension wires.  I might only guess that when I had the cap off, to get to the forward two cylinder's spark-plugs I mush have pulled the lead, the end of the split orange insulation has broken off and the lead was loose in its hole, although when I pulled on it it didn't appear to be.   

For anyone who doesn't know, it's important to undo the pin screws (on the inside of the distributor cap) all the way when you refit these leads.  Only when the screw is right the way unwound, and after you'ved checked there no debris inside the hole, should you push the lead in, hold it securely pushed into the cap, and then refit and tighten the grub screw.  If however the screw was still partly in, and even you push the lead hard into the cap, then the sharp end of the screw can catch the insulation and the lead doesn't go all the way in.  It only just held there. Even when tugged it feels secure, but over the years the lead is also twisted and that can break it out.  As has happened here.

Those grub screws by the way can fall out of the cap when they are fully unscrewed. they look like this . . .

^ you can just see the pointy ended screw (..just a little down from the centre of this photo) which I dropped (i being the twit who inverted the cap) !  It dropped down by the oil filter to the chassis (silver painted on this car).

For those astute enough to notice, that screw is above the brake pipe ..and there's no shadow from or around it.  That's because it is suspended in space.   No, it wasn't that I was incredibly quick with my camera ..it's simply caught in a cob-web.   It might be worth remembering this image next time you drop a small screw or washer and you simply cannot find it anywhere on the ground.

Moving on, with the end of this HT lead cut 1/4" shorter and carefully refitted, I have since retried the car down the A14.  When first started the ammeter shot around and off the scale, but tapping it and turning the lights on again restored it to read normally.  I guess the control box is forewarning me that it's about to die.   Engine ticked over more smoothly and at all speeds things are back to normal again ..running on four cylinders.  Vibration of the engine is still very noticeable above 3000rpm, so I guess there's a still a little more carb tuning to happen, as well as a difference in compression between each cylinder. That is something I am not going to check because I do not want to know !  As 3100 is 70mph I can live with some vibration as I work through the gears, and otherwise it is not a problem.

It is noteworthy that the vibration period of the engine has moved from 3000 - 3200rpm to now peak at 3300 - 3400 rpm. This I might attribute to the points gap being 0.008" ..which I've now corrected to the handbook's specification of 0.015".  The gap effects exactly when the points open (when the spark happens), so by increasing the point's gap by another 0.007" .. I've retarded the ignition a little.  This in turn can be felt as a slight drop in the engine's gusto, as well as in the rpm change of its peak vibration. 

Why the engine cut out completely ..and when checked there appeared to be no spark across the contact breakers - I do not know.  I think that intermittent faults reveal themselves in time, or else I've corrected something without knowing it.    It's my local TSSC club night tomorrow, at The Sorrel Horse, Barham, so we'll see if she runs OK for that.

Frustrating issues these past few weeks, but all in all really nothing very major. 

One thing to be noted here is that ; while my focus was on carburettor tuning, having previously (..and deliberately) changed absolutely nothing to the ignition side of things, aside from cleaning the spark plugs - the engine's rough running after I adjusted the twin SU's mixture.. was mostly due to my inadvertently twisting the one poorly attatched HT lead.

Pete 

       

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Bfg

[Charlie D]

13 hours ago, Bfg said:

Power to the ignition, if I remember correctly comes from the ignition switch. I try to twist under the dash to have a look,

Pete,

I think it’s worth carrying a length of wire with a small crocodile clip on each end.
If you ever find that power is not getting to the distributor at least you can do a quick fix by patching the coil terminal to the battery direct. It may get you out of uncomfortable situations quicker.

The photo with the dropped screw. Is that oil on the floor just under the end of the oil filter bowl? Classic sign of a leak where the bowl joins the top part.

Charlie.

[RobH]

13 hours ago, Bfg said:

Why the engine cut out completely ..and when checked there appeared to be no spark across the contact breakers - I do not know.

Check the short lead from the coil to the distributor. It is quite common for the wire to fracture inside the insulation near the connector, because that wire flaps about.  If the broken ends are still touching inside the insulation, the result is an intermittent connection which can seem to cure itself if you move the wire a bit. 

[Mk2 Chopper]

It'll be worth doing all the ignition components to make sure it's all tip top. Having adjusted the points, you might need a small tweak on the timing to get everything optimal again, and then I'd be setting up those carbs. Would be worth doing your valve clearances before you do so that all the cylinders are at their best. 

An enjoyable write up as always. Looking forward to your next escapades!

Gareth

[Charlie D]

2 hours ago, RobH said:

Check the short lead from the coil to the distributor.

Ah…

Another place easily bridged with a wire with crok, clips to get you going.

I believe that it’s also common for the wire inside the distributor that goes from the distributor terminal to the points to breaks.

Not so easy to do a “Quick fix” on that though.

Charlie.

[Bfg]

2 hours ago, Charlie D said:

Pete,

I think it’s worth carrying a length of wire with a small crocodile clip on each end.
If you ever find that power is not getting to the distributor at least you can do a quick fix by patching the coil terminal to the battery direct. It may get you out of uncomfortable situations quicker.

The photo with the dropped screw. Is that oil on the floor just under the end of the oil filter bowl? Classic sign of a leak where the bowl joins the top part.

Charlie.

Thanks for the tip Charlie, I'll try that.

The oil is in a drip tray, which has been under there for the past six months, but kicks around into different places.  The engine has a slight weep from the front timing case, and more from the rear scroll seal, but as i have no wish to pull the engine - I can live with them. The more persistent oil leaks though are the result of £1500 worth of professionalism in rebuilding the gearbox and overdrive, and their reassembly.

 

2 hours ago, RobH said:

Check the short lead from the coil to the distributor. It is quite common for the wire to fracture inside the insulation near the connector, because that wire flaps about.  If the broken ends are still touching inside the insulation, the result is an intermittent connection which can seem to cure itself if you move the wire a bit. 

Thanks Rob, I have replaced the low-tension lead between the coil and distributor and soldered new connections onto either end. While doing so I took the wire's diameter up in size. I would be surprised if it were that, but as the wire was recycled (but shiny copper when stripped back for the connectors) then it is a possibility.

The feed wire to the coil (white wire) is taken from the back of the ignition switch, a connected wire from this goes to the ammeter warning light. I wasn't conscious / I didn't notice there was anything wrong with that lamp when I first tried to restart the engine. This ignition switch's connection is a two-terminal post (for spade connectors) and the other wire is the white one which goes to the fuse box, on the green wire side ..from which the fuel and temp gauge instruments take their power, and also the heater's fan blower. The instruments always read low when the engine's not running (..which is rather annoying), and I might otherwise only say that heater blower worked fine when the car restarted ..but of course I didn't try it when the car was dead.  Could be that the control box (remember the excess charge reading on the ammeter) is playing up and the brown and blue wire from that to the ignition switch lost its power. The horn is from that same connection on the control box, so if or when it happens again I'll try the horn to see if it is that. 

The hazard lights are from the other fuse, which takes it power from another terminal on the control box. That was OK.

 

1 hour ago, Mk2 Chopper said:

It'll be worth doing all the ignition components to make sure it's all tip top. Having adjusted the points, you might need a small tweak on the timing to get everything optimal again, and then I'd be setting up those carbs. Would be worth doing your valve clearances before you do so that all the cylinders are at their best. 

An enjoyable write up as always. Looking forward to your next escapades!

Gareth

Agreed Gareth. Thanks..  I've only been through the low tension / feed wiring, and changed the low-tension lead from coil to distributor.  I deliberately try to do this sort of thing - just one system at a time.  The ignition was working and although probably not spot on, had otherwise not given me cause for concern ..whereas the old carburettors were very obviously old n' tired.    

Valve clearances have been done recently, and the rocker shaft and rockers are new, but aside from the oil pump, which I've also rebuilt - I fear this engine is also worn n' tired.

Katie  is some nine years younger than me, so I can relate. 

Pete

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Bfg

[Nigel C]

8 hours ago, Charlie D said:

Pete,

I think it’s worth carrying a length of wire with a small crocodile clip on each end.
If you ever find that power is not getting to the distributor at least you can do a quick fix by patching the coil terminal to the battery direct. It may get you out of uncomfortable situations quicker.

The photo with the dropped screw. Is that oil on the floor just under the end of the oil filter bowl? Classic sign of a leak where the bowl joins the top part.

Charlie.

I have a couple of these tester leads with crock clips and a lead with an in-line bulb as a visual tester in my "boot kit" along with a cheap little multi meter.

I have also gone through quite a few coils over the years (God knows why) so I have a spare (that's been tested on the car) fixed in the engine bay with pre-fitted low tension leads that will reach from where it resides...trust me you only want to experience the embarrassment of breaking down on the off ramp of the ferry on the way to Le Mans once!

[Charlie D]

1 hour ago, Nigel C said:

...I have a couple of these tester leads with crock clips...

"Tester leads"?

When I were a lad in Leamington Spa, they were known as “Brumie ignition keys.”

(Did you get yours from a dodgy geezer in a railway arch down the line from Saltley Viaduct ?)

Charlie.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Charlie D