TomMull Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 This question came up n another forum and the consensus is that only the straight handle type grip was original and that the newer dog bone style is an incorrect reproduction. I know, MINUTIA in capital letters, but I've had my Tr3 since 1964 and all I can remember are the dog bone style. (I can't claim mine are original, only quite old). So the questions are: Were the newer ones ever used in production? Were they supplied by Stanpart as replacements or were they only aftermarket items? (TRA judging: "E. Coach Key - All models use the same basic coach keys.There are slight variations in length. The grip section should be straight, not dogbone-like. Finish is natural metal.") Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 This question came up n another forum and the consensus is that only the straight handle type grip was original and that the newer dog bone style is an incorrect reproduction. I know, MINUTIA in capital letters, but I've had my Tr3 since 1964 and all I can remember are the dog bone style. (I can't claim mine are original, only quite old). So the questions are: Were the newer ones ever used in production? Were they supplied by Stanpart as replacements or were they only aftermarket items? (TRA judging: "E. Coach Key - All models use the same basic coach keys.There are slight variations in length. The grip section should be straight, not dogbone-like. Finish is natural metal.") coach key 1.jpgcoach key 2.png Tom Yes they were supplied as a spare part. The larger one of the keys is the style that Triumph used to supply under part number 650161. The item was supplied with Triumph 2000/2500/2.5PI estate cars as it was the key to undo the budget locks that held the cover over the spare wheel in place. The key lived in a sewn pocket of the side of the luggage area by the rear lamp. I sold these for many years and they were a plain metal finish and not immaculately made. The most critical part of them was that the end was ground to fit the square of the Dzus fastener and the overall size of the shaft was small enough to pass through a chrome escutcheon (toilet seat or fig leaf). The aftermarket budget lock keys that are usually nice bright chome fail on square size that hill not fit the Dzus button and overal diameter is too big to go through the escutcheons on the spare wheel lid. Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 Dogbone style Dzus keys were definitely original equipment over here, although possibly not the only style supplied over the years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TomMull Posted May 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 Dogbone style Dzus keys were definitely original equipment over here, although possibly not the only style supplied over the years. Don, That's what I remember but it puts us at odds with some experts and the TRA judging guidelines above. And my memory is often unreliable. Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) John Warfield authored that section of the TRA TR2-3B originality guide c 1995. John's made a serious study of tools and is probably one of the best regarding originality. But knowing many of the guys who wrote that guide way back when, they simply did the best they could with what they knew and saw. I'd disagree with that point on tools -- I've seen dogbone Dzus keys in what with high confidence appear to be original tool kits. Edited May 8, 2017 by Don H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 The coach key in the lower part of the photo is the original one that came with my 1958 TR3A brand new in May, 1958. "TRusty" was "born" on Feb. 14th, 1958 and bears Comm. No. TS 27489 LO. All the replacement keys I have bought are like the upper onE where the square end is cast as a diamond. This was probably done to give that end a draught angle to facilitate the casting process steps. The original key has the square end which is square and parallel with the "T" of the handle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 The straight key in Tom's photo I'd associate only with early TR2s, and the dogbone as by far the more common sidescreen tool. This was the kind of item that Standard Triumph might have sourced from any one of a dozen suppliers through the years . . . . . it was after all a common enough lock fitment in all sorts of applications. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted May 8, 2017 Report Share Posted May 8, 2017 I have a number of them at work, all original equipment so I will have a look and see what they are like tomorrow. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
2long Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Here are a couple of mine. One of the T-keys is original to my car but I bloody well forgot which one! Dan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Hi Dan, it's the one on the left. Roger PS- or was that the right Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) Its the one on the right, same as Dons one.I can find these three at the moment here, you can see that the two large ones have been slightly altered on the ends to cope with the vagaries of some of the repro Dzus fasteners. I think the middle one is an original.No idea about the one on the left as it seems to have extra applications for nave plate removal. Stuart. Edited May 10, 2017 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james christie Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 'Scuse me but isn.t this thread getting a bit anorakish. They all fonction but are unseen by most except those who judge very exacting cncours requirements of our American friends. By the way, when I can't find mine a straight bladed screw driver is adequate. James Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) I'd suggest you bow out of the thread then, James. This started anoraky and it ain't gonna be anything but that. You definitely won't like what I'm gonna post below American concours guidelines are just that -- a best effort at documenting how the cars were made. As TRs increase in value there's probably some good in that, although I fully respect that y'all in the home country like to mod freely. Plenty over here that do that, too. It's a big tent. Here are a few images from my archive of what I believe to be an original TR dogbone key, as well as a straight key that I know nothing more about. I've seen one with the grip like Dan's, but have no idea where those originated. I have this "pocket Dzus key" as well -- a hobby project by a dedicated TR guy who made a few of these many years ago. Edited May 10, 2017 by Don H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) I'd suggest you bow out of the thread then, James. This started anoraky and it ain't gonna be anything but that. You definitely won't like what I'm gonna post below American concours guidelines are just that -- a best effort at documenting how the cars were made. As TRs increase in value there's probably some good in that, although I fully respect that y'all in the home country like to mod freely. Plenty over here that do that, too. It's a big tent. Here are a few images from my archive of what I believe to be an original TR dogbone key, as well as a straight key that I know nothing more about. I've seen one with the grip like Dan's, but have no idea where those originated. I have this "pocket Dzus key" as well -- a hobby project by a dedicated TR guy who made a few of these many years ago. Yes I would agree with Don that is what I would describe as an original. Peter W PS Now what about 'nave plate tools'? Surely, someone feels a thread coming on....In fact an entire series covering toolkits and their individual contents. Anoraks at Dawn? Edited May 10, 2017 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james christie Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I'm outta here James Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I looked in the TR3 owners manual and it looks like the handle is straight in that picture. That book probably started life as a TR2 manual. Nice pocket dzus tool Don. I only have the dog bone style but no dog, only cats. Surprised that nobody has asked what a nave plate is yet. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Can't say I blame you Jim lad, the American judging guidelines are the kind of thing that only a Nixon or Trump could contemplate as bedtime reading, and demonstrate that when it comes to anal retention there is one nation that sits head and shoulders above the rest of us when it comes to the constipation Olympics . . . . . Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 (edited) ^^^ This from a guy who just changed a fan belt from 1958, and whose family has had a Pennant since new, still with original paint and interior and factory hot-up kit?! Sheesh -- the Pringle family Triumph experience is a living concours guide! I'll guarantee one of those guys you noted has never read anything at bedtime that didn't involve himself, and originality would always be subservient to gold plating in his guidebook. Maybe just the guy for TR Gold, in fact. Edited May 11, 2017 by Don H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 I looked in the TR3 owners manual and it looks like the handle is straight in that picture. That book probably started life as a TR2 manual. Nice pocket dzus tool Don. I only have the dog bone style but no dog, only cats. Surprised that nobody has asked what a nave plate is yet. Stan Stan Who would want to admit their navety! Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 Hi James, I'm with you. I only look at these postings to see how far nurdyism (indeed it is not a word but if Ivor can invent them so can I) has evolved. Don appears to have an excess of the Nurdy gene but at 6' 6" I'm not going to tell him. Roger PS - I hope he doesn't read this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 Okay Guys! let see how many versions we can get when I Ask " Why is it called a carriage key?" Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 Hi Dave, one answer is that on the early 'old' stock railway carriages the doors were locked by the guard from the outside. This probably came from stage coaches (carriages) that needed the doors locking. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 Okay Guys! let see how many versions we can get when I Ask " Why is it called a carriage key?" Dave In 1742 the coach and horses private mail delivery company's developed a locking mechanism each company had there own key format. So the at the change over points (staging posts and coach houses) "their" post could be transferred securely for the next part of the journey but allowed the company clerk to take the post for that area. In the end (abut like video systems vhs Betamax v2000 etc) one became dominant. The one we have today. Then "proper" keys and locks were used. If you say something with enough authority some will believe you ???? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 I wonder what the concours judges would make of this ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 ^^^ Looks like one for the Jaguar crowd. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.