stillp Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 I was visiting a farm the other day, and the guy was telling me he's clearing out a barn full of "scrap", including about a dozen Ferguson tractor engines as well as some early TR engines. I asked him to hold off on the scrapping and to let me know what exactly he's got so I can offer them on this forum - hopefully he will! I know the TR engine is a derivative of the Fergie, but can anyone clarify what parts are common to both Fergie and TR? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 Where's Alec when you need him ? Bet he's done this before. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 Sorry Mick, I may live in Wurzel Country, but tractors aren't my thing, not even little grey Fergies . . . . Knowledge of tractor engine components, sodall . . . . . There must be some interchangeability, of a sort. The late Stuart Jenkins once turned a TR2 engine into a diesel courtesy of a box of Fergie parts, for no good reason other than that some clot with more money than sense had bet him it couldn't be done. Challenge Jenks was never a clever strategy, it usually finished up costing money one way or another. That was possibly the world's slowest TR, and Stuart wasn't unduly amused when I suggested he take the o out of County Sports Cars for his efforts . . . . . That apart, little grey Fergies, even petrol versions, were not intended to set the grass alight let alone the tarmac, and I doubt there'll be much in there that justifies transfer to a TR, any TR. There might be more joy to be had with transplant to a Vanguard ? Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeF Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 Fergies are as desirables as TRs to some people and are restored go to shows etc same as us. I googled Fergie Tractor Club and yes there are several. I imagine they could be interested to know about the engines. AS a nice foot note there are two Fergies in regular use in this village, I have stared hard at the engines trying to see how they can have the same engine, and I can't Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Geko Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 the raw material is the TE 20: http://www.1260engineer.com/media/Blog%20folder/TE20.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Liners and FO8`s and with a bit of adaptation the water pump from the Petrol/TVO/Lamp oil versions are the same though the tractors use 85mm. Also I think the head gasket. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Would the cranks be usable? Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) Would the cranks be usable? Roger No they are different. Though what always gets me with them is they have a proper lip seal on the back instead of the scroll. Stuart. Edited March 21, 2014 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 The big problem is rpm Roger - the additional maximum rpm of a TR engine is too much for many Vanguard rotating or reciprocating components, let alone those of a little grey Fergie, and the same applies to the internal components of Standard stationary and industrial engines. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 When I read the title of this thread........ I thought it was another F1 reference......... but had a look anyway as my first job after leaving school was driving a little Fergie alongside the potato harvester....I soon packed that in when the next job was shoveling the spuds into the riddler....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john minchin Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 My dad had a TR4 in the 60's and 70's and it broke its crankshaft. He tells me with evident pleasure how he brought a tractor crank and fitted it. It was a daily driver back then and it seemed to work OK. A source of 20 or so crankshafts even with the different seal system on the back should be taken advantage of in my opinion. What is there to lose ? Regards, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Robson Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) If you were to ask vice-president Ian Cornish nicely, he has written a magisterial survey of the wet-liner engine, which was published only a couple of years ago - and he might be able to point you at the articles, or even (sorry Ian ....) provide you with the words, electronically. The fact is that although the two engines - tractor and Vanguard - were designed together in the mid-1940s, there were many very significant differences, including very different major castings such as cylinder blocks and cylinder heads. But - ask Ian, and ye shall be educated. Hon. Pres. . Edited March 21, 2014 by Graham Robson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 The articles to which Graham refers were published in TR Actions 241 & 242 (March and May 2010). The engines for the Fergie and the Vanguard were developed in parallel, but one must remember that the Fergie used the engine as a structural member linking the front and rear axles (a practice later used in Formula !), and the engine was a low compression unit deliberately limited to 2000 rpm. The TR's engine was derived from that of the Vanguard, but development revealed a number of problems when compression, power and engine speed were increased. I don't propose to paste my articles here, but the problem areas were: 1 - Studs holding down the head gasket - block casting modified. 2 - Big ends. 3 - Crankshaft - cross-drilling required. 4 - Connecting rods. 5 - Valve gear - camshaft modified. 6 - Rear oil sealing. 7 - Crankcase breather. 8 - Cooling fan. 9 - Oil filter. By the time you have gone through that lot, there's not really much, apart from a few nuts and bolts, which could be used by a TR-owner from a Fergie engine! On the other hand, imagine a Fergie with a TR4 engine, or even Tony Sheach's 200 BHP "Beastie" version! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlfredHitchcock Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 The Massey Ferguson factory in Coventry had a grey fergie tractor in the reception on display. I remember sitting in there once and being amazed that the engine block, that looked just like my 4, was forming part of the spine that linked the whole drive train together. I think it had a cast iron sump structure as well which would have helped. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 There is one down here that turns up at some of the shows that someone has grafted a V8 Rover engine into it. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Willie Felger Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Bag any water pumps. They are the same as TR ones and much better quality than the "new" repro ones currently on sale. They should have a grease nipple in the top. Good hunting, Willie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dick Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 I am rebuilding a Fergy engine at the moment and it is interesting to try to identify similarities. I was looking at this the other way...like what could I use out of the TR spares bin.......not much. There are two engines...80mm and 85mm bore. 80mm engines have smaller spiget diameters for liner location....85mm are the same as TR. Water pumps seem to be the same. But the shaft is different where the pulley fits. Rocker shafts and rockers....cast iron pedestals. Crank timing chain sprocket. Maybe the oil pump innards. Front crank sealing block. Cam followers. Valve collets. 85mm liners if you want to bore them out. And thats about it. One thing that I am supprised that was not carried over to the TR variant is the Fergy rear crank seal arrangement, which is a split seal and has held on my 60 year old tractor....no oil in the bell housing. It looks quiet easy to modify a TR to this arragement....the seals cost £14. Also the spigot bearing is a sealed ball race not a cheap bush. Interestingly a new crank costs £220!!! Appreciated it is not cross drilled but it would be an interesting conversation to have with the manufacturer, given they quoted me £260 for TR 86mm liner / piston kit including gaskets. I suppose it works like this...value of good TR .....circa £20K compared with £2K on a good day for a Fergy tractor....spares prices reflecting value????? Perhaps the register doesnt get involved with finding cost effective spares.....perhaps it should......thats where we started. Appologies for the slight rant and subject extention. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 One thing that I am supprised that was not carried over to the TR variant is the Fergy rear crank seal arrangement, which is a split seal and has held on my 60 year old tractor....no oil in the bell housing. It looks quiet easy to modify a TR to this arragement....the seals cost £14. Also the spigot bearing is a sealed ball race not a cheap bush. Interestingly a new crank costs £220!!! Appreciated it is not cross drilled but it would be an interesting conversation to have with the manufacturer, given they quoted me £260 for TR 86mm liner / piston kit including gaskets. I suppose it works like this...value of good TR .....circa £20K compared with £2K on a good day for a Fergy tractor....spares prices reflecting value????? Perhaps the register doesnt get involved with finding cost effective spares.....perhaps it should......thats where we started. So TRue. [Especially starting with 4-cylinder crankshafts] Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Hi Dick/Brian, £220 for a new crank - blimey Is that new manufacture today or new old stock. A newly made TR four pot crank is just under £2000 and made by Phoenix engineering in Slough. From an engineering point of view that is good value considering all the machining etc. and will last forever. To have one journal built back up (using a welding technique) and then ground to size costs £200 = £1400 for all seven. Each one looks good value. Who is the manufacturer/supplier of the Fergie crank. The TRR does have the SDF have you asked for an economic crank to be investigated. There are secondhand cranks out there - but be careful most are cracked due to age/miles/use Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
re-hiker Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Just to jump om the Subject, you are correct Stuart, due to unaffordable Parts Prices for new TR2/3 Cylinder Liners in South Africa, they use Fergie Liners shortened down in a Machine Shop. There you have to find a Way around huge Import Duties on Car Parts, but much less on Ag Parts. Robert Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MichaelH Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 What value a unused old stock TR crank still in its oily paper? Michael Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 A wise man would wish to check that it was still straight and crack free after all these years . . . . . one for the local engine shop ! Assuming it is straight, then it has to be worth a minimum £500 even at mate's rates. Open market value, £1K+ to someone building a good engine. I know there have been some 6 cylinder cranks sold for £2-300 apiece recently, but they are rather more common than 4-pot cranks and less prone to breakage. As far as I know these were untested items, but even so should have sold for at least £400 each if tested. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 An old tatty crack free crank requiring machining goes for about £100-150. Machining of the journals apprx £100. Somewhere in the region £200 - 300 would be reasonable for a newly machined used crank. A NOS crank has the advantage of having original size journals but not a lot more benefit. I would have thought in the region of £500 would be reasonable. It may still require workshop attention to make sure the #4 big-end journal to web radius is as good as it could be. Bear in mind a NEW crank will cost apprx £1800 and would be spot on. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dick Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 A NOS crank has the benefit not only of std. Journals but also it has not been stressed so therefore should be crack free...but I still wouldn't pay £500 for one or £1800 for a new one. I am probably out of touch as was brought up in the days of cheap motoring. As an aside I have a 1933 Talbot.....one of the few suppliers is trying to sell new brake drums for £550 +vat each. Engine rebuild start at £15000.......usually circa £20000. When fairly mundane cars start to cost huge amounts to fix they start to become a liabiliy and end up sitting in the garage rather than being used. When I get time I will do a bit of research on tractor cranks and where they are made....I am told somewhere in the UK. I wonder if the forging for a non cross drilled and cross drilled is the same. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) Hi Dick, here is a supplier doing new crank for £350 http://www.acornservicestractorparts.com/acatalog/4_cylinder_Petrol___TVO__80__85mm.html I would love to pop along and compare dimensions Cross drilling isn't rocket science but needs a level of skill to do it right. As for the rear oil seal - an opportunity for a better seal. Roger or this one http://old20tractorparts.com/t20-engine/1010-ferguson-te20-fe35-crankshaft-1210135.html Edited March 26, 2014 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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