People’s thoughts on TR4

[stillp]

On 10/11/2023 at 10:09 PM, Neilson said:

Thanks Paul, I’ll make a note of this and ask the seller.

Neil

Did you ask them?

Pete

[Neilson]

20 minutes ago, stillp said:

Did you ask them?

Pete

Hi Pete, I did ask…

it looks like the owner didn’t do the restoration himself, but has owned the car for a couple of years and got a professional back to bare metal respray among other upgrades.

He said that the sill to floor body mounts weren’t used, but he took it to a specialist TR engineer today, who said they’re not needed.

Thanks

[Neilson]

53 minutes ago, rcreweread said:

The inner part of the cill structure below the floor is actually part of the floor pan pressing.I sus pect this was rotten but rather than replace the whole floor pan, this lower part has been cut off and piece of flat steel welded in place. In practice, if this has been done well with sound spot welds or plug/seam welds, in my view this is OK, but could weaken the structure a little . Just reread thread from start and can see it has had new floor pans, so the dealer is simply misdescribing what is actually there - this makes it even more surprising that the floor brackets have been omitted - it's not as if they are not available.

What isn't OK is leaving out the under floor strengthening brackets, which both strengthen this whole area and spread the load onto the chassis mounting - given that this arrangement is largely what holds the body onto the chassis, their omission could have serious consequences in the event of an accident. The shape of the brackets is such that you can't slide them into place as they  are - I suppose you could flatten out one side so you could slide it in and then refold the flattened out side. You then need to weld the bracket to the inner cill/floor pan , the former going to be difficult to get full access because of the chassis bracket. Obviously you would have to remove the floor to chassis mounting bolts and the rubber/metal/canvas pads first, and then repack afterwards ( assuming these are all there  - have you got a photo of this area?

The chassis and engine numbers look close enough to be original to each other, but the body number doesn't match, unless the 2nd digit has been mis stamped as a 9 instead of a 0 - you could easily resolve this by getting a Heritage Certificate ( from the British Motor Museum)

Hope this helps

Cheers Rich

Thanks Rich,

That is rather worrying as I was intending to purchase the car tomorrow.

unfortunately I haven’t got a photo of this area, but I can ask for one.

It sounds like a serious mistake that could cost a lot of money to rectify. I’m having serious doubts whether to go through with this purchase now.

Thanks

Neil

Edited October 16, 2023 by Neilson

[stillp]

3 minutes ago, Neilson said:

 

It sounds like a serious mistake that could cost a lot of money to rectify. I’m having serious doubts whether to go through with this purchase now.

 

I agree, I would pass on that one.

10 minutes ago, Neilson said:

 

He said that the sill to floor body mounts weren’t used, but he took it to a specialist TR engineer today, who said they’re not needed.

 

Who is this 'specialist TR engineer' who thinks that Triumph fitted unnecessary parts?

Pete

[Neilson]

2 minutes ago, stillp said:

I agree, I would pass on that one.

Who is this 'specialist TR engineer' who thinks that Triumph fitted unnecessary parts?

Pete

I’ll ask him now…

[Jase]

Looks fantastic, life is too short to worry about bits that can be fixed, use it, enjoy it and improve. It's the colour you want, test drive it nd make an offer. How much are they asking for the car?

Loads wrong with mine but it's brilliant and I'll mess about with it over the years hopefully.

[rcreweread]

31 minutes ago, Neilson said:

Thanks Rich,

That is rather worrying as I was intending to purchase the car tomorrow.

unfortunately I haven’t got a photo of this area, but I can ask for one.

It sounds like a serious mistake that could cost a lot of money to rectify. I’m having serious doubts whether to go through with this purchase now.

Thanks

Neil

Neil - I really don't want to be a party pooper, but the more I think about this, the more convinced I am you should probably walk away - I've been down to my workshop to look at these parts on a 4A I'm currently building at floor and sill stage so these strengthening brackets are being trial fitted right now - without at minimum raising the body off the chassis by about 6 inches, any attempt to retrofit the brackets with the body in situ will be a bodge  - I cannot understand how someone could omit these, and the excuses you have been given are quite worrying in themselves.

To rectify this will cost a lot of money -well into the thousands as their is a lot of work involved, lifting the body, removing seats and relevant interior trim re the necessary welding  -if the sill box section has been waxoyled, what fun that will be ! - and for what  - for 4 brackets which cost about £50!! Doesn't make sense.

And on this occasion, I'm afraid I don't agree with Jason - it's too big a risk and unless you can knock many thousands off the price, give it a miss - there are others out there and it's a buyers market.

Cheers Rich

[Neilson]

11 hours ago, stillp said:

I agree, I would pass on that one.

Who is this 'specialist TR engineer' who thinks that Triumph fitted unnecessary parts?

Pete

Hi Pete, I’m calling them tomorrow to find out

Thanks

Neil

Edited October 17, 2023 by Neilson

[Neilson]

7 minutes ago, rcreweread said:

Neil - I really don't want to be a party pooper, but the more I think about this, the more convinced I am you should probably walk away - I've been down to my workshop to look at these parts on a 4A I'm currently building at floor and sill stage so these strengthening brackets are being trial fitted right now - without at minimum raising the body off the chassis by about 6 inches, any attempt to retrofit the brackets with the body in situ will be a bodge  - I cannot understand how someone could omit these, and the excuses you have been given are quite worrying in themselves.

To rectify this will cost a lot of money -well into the thousands as their is a lot of work involved, lifting the body, removing seats and relevant interior trim re the necessary welding  -if the sill box section has been waxoyled, what fun that will be ! - and for what  - for 4 brackets which cost about £50!! Doesn't make sense.

And on this occasion, I'm afraid I don't agree with Jason - it's too big a risk and unless you can knock many thousands off the price, give it a miss - there are others out there and it's a buyers market.

Cheers Rich

Thanks for the advice Rich, the seller has just replied with the following message -

The chassis and floor has been seam welded. Speak to Eric (TR specialist) in morning and I’m sure he can advise on this. I don’t think this is as bad as your thinking, the car is safe.
This work could be done at a later date, but he may be able to give a cost which I’m sure would not be expensive. I looked at this today with him and he has these brackets

Edited October 16, 2023 by Neilson

[rcreweread]

Neil - have just sent you a PM ( personal message - envelope icon at top of page) with my contact details - give me a call - I'm still up!

Cheers Rich

[Malbaby]

Neil.....Bottom line is that you would need to be buying this car at a very attractive price.

eg...For those brackets to be missing is unbelieveable, and must be fitted for safety reasons...as previously stated, very expensive to retrofit....sounds like the owner just fitted the bolts through the floor pans...and what else has been poorly done, eg. floor pans and spare wheel replacement....how good/bad were the rocker panels?...the rockers would also need very careful inspection as it is hard to believe that they did not also need some rust repair.

As a rough guess, I would allow about 5 thousand pounds to rectify the obvious and unseen problems, providing the paint work is excellent with no shrink back etc.

Would I buy the car?.....yes, but at the right price.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Malbaby

[Neilson]

5 hours ago, Malbaby said:

Neil.....Bottom line is that you would need to be buying this car at a very attractive price.

eg...For those brackets to be missing is unbelieveable, and must be fitted for safety reasons...as previously stated, very expensive to retrofit....sounds like the owner just fitted the bolts through the floor pans...and what else has been poorly done, eg. floor pans and spare wheel replacement....how good/bad were the rocker panels?...the rockers would also need very careful inspection as it is hard to believe that they did not also need some rust repair.

As a rough guess, I would allow about 5 thousand pounds to rectify the obvious and unseen problems, providing the paint work is excellent with no shrink back etc.

Would I buy the car?.....yes, but at the right price.

Hey, thanks again for the advice.

The car’s priced at £33k, but I wouldn’t pay that. Would £27k be a good offer?

Apparently the bodywork and interior are amazing, and panel gaps are spot on. The engine and gearbox were overhauled by Revington.

The car had a close to bare metal paint job too.

Someone who went to see it, had viewed 16 TRs over the course of 3 weeks and said this was one of the best out there.

The seller has given me his mechanic’s details, so I can talk to him about pricing up the work. If it amounts to thousands I’ll definitely leave it and carry on the quest!

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Neilson

[Neilson]

Just spoke to the seller’s engineer who told me - The brackets although essential were a small part of the body’s integrity. It was a shame they weren’t put in at the time of the restoration, but he wouldn’t be put off by not having them on the car.

He advised that on a side impact, the sill would just push into the chassis m, so there wouldn’t be an issue. He never mentioned front or rear impacts. 

To overcome the problem, he advised to cut the brackets in half and tuck them under until they met and weld the edges to floor and sills.

I asked how much and could he do the work, but he declined saying he had too much work on.

Thoughts?

[roy53]

13 hours ago, Neilson said:

Thanks Roy,

Can they be fitted at a later stage quite easily?

Best

Neil

No

[John Morrison]

Well

I've followed this thread with interest.

I think IF the only issue you have is fitting the brackets, (No 101 in the schematic) then retro fitting is straightforward.

Presumably there is still a sandwich of rubber/metal mounting pads between the floor pan and the chassis outrigger?

Then I would fit one bracket at a time, remove the pads by jacking up the floor adjacent to the bracket you fitting remove the pads, drill the floor two or three times to allow plug welding through the floor into the bracket plate, 

Locate the bracket, pack onto the floor, ensure bracket is located onto the sills underneath, weld up, weld to the inner sill, prime paint and adjust the packers by what you have added in bracket thickness.

I would think £300 - £400 a bracket.

IF this is your only concern, lets say this car ticks 8 or 9 ticks out of 10 I'd buy the car.

John.

[ntc]

They are dead easy to fitt and no need to lift the body 

[Neilson]

19 minutes ago, John Morrison said:

Well

I've followed this thread with interest.

I think IF the only issue you have is fitting the brackets, (No 101 in the schematic) then retro fitting is straightforward.

Presumably there is still a sandwich of rubber/metal mounting pads between the floor pan and the chassis outrigger?

Then I would fit one bracket at a time, remove the pads by jacking up the floor adjacent to the bracket you fitting remove the pads, drill the floor two or three times to allow plug welding through the floor into the bracket plate, 

Locate the bracket, pack onto the floor, ensure bracket is located onto the sills underneath, weld up, weld to the inner sill, prime paint and adjust the packers by what you have added in bracket thickness.

I would think £300 - £400 a bracket.

IF this is your only concern, lets say this car ticks 8 or 9 ticks out of 10 I'd buy the car.

John.

Hi John, that’s interesting and yes those are the brackets along with number 102.

Are you in a position to take on this kind of work?

Thanks

Neil

[RogerH]

21 minutes ago, ntc said:

They are dead easy to fitt and no need to lift the body 

H Neil,

if they are dead easy to fit why would the Experienced TR engineer want to cut them in half to fit.

It is not a job for the inexperienced on a Sunday afternoon.

In my mind the issue would be - if they forgot to fit these brackets then what else is missing.

£27K is too much for a cock-up.

Roger

[John Morrison]

Well I thought cutting the brackets in half was a ludicrous suggestion, maybe the guy is mechanical and not a body man?

That's a days work for someone who knows what he is doing, and has thought this particular job through from start to finish, 

John.

[John Morrison]

19 minutes ago, Neilson said:

Hi John, that’s interesting and yes those are the brackets along with number 102.

Are you in a position to take on this kind of work?

Thanks

Neil

Short answer Neil is no, I'm just a dedicated amateur, who lives the very wrong end of the country for you I'm afraid.

Point is, IF a Cumbria group member was buying that car - then yes, I'd let him buy it, and would do the job for him, in my own time without issue or concern.

I understand your concerns about buying a car Neil, BUT, as I mentioned before if this ticks most of the boxes, and the remainder can be sorted then I would buy it.

You'll never find the perfect 50 years old car, though I also think its priced to be knocked down!

Other thing if you finish up organising this work, we can advise before and during, so you end up with a proper job.

Get hold of your local group leader(Via the Register) and ask what and who is available locally to look at the job.

PM your phone number if you want a chat 

John.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

On the issue of the brackets.

i would have thought they provided additional vertical location and support for the A & B posts.  It is those chassis points you pack to adjust the post heights.    The brackets must provide a degree of rigidity to the posts, reducing bend at the floor downward flange.

 

Looking at the original photos suppliers labels can be sen on the unpainted floors. So we may suspect the floors to be new.

[ntc]

11 minutes ago, RogerH said:

H Neil,

if they are dead easy to fit why would the Experienced TR engineer want to cut them in half to fit.

It is not a job for the inexperienced on a Sunday afternoon.

In my mind the issue would be - if they forgot to fit these brackets then what else is missing.

£27K is too much for a cock-up.

Roger

They are easy Roger if you know how to do it, that’s my concern he doesn’t.

[gloide69]

26 minutes ago, RogerH said:

In my mind the issue would be - if they forgot to fit these brackets then what else is missing.

That was my concern too....most things can be put right, but it is knowing where there is an impact on safety.

If the seller states it's MOT exempt, I would be very worried, 12month MOT would give some confidence, but not sure I trust them to be thorough, these days.

 

If it has seatbelts, I would also recommend checking the anchor points, e.g. item 65 in the Moss exploded diagram.

Paul

[stuart]

Having fitted floors/sills/floor brackets to a lot more cars than most of you here I can assure you if you want to do this job properly and lets face it on a valuable car such as this properly is the only way, then it needs the body raising by six inches to clear the chassis bracket area and the sill so that area can be cleaned off sufficiently to allow the brackets to be welded in as the should be to the floor and the drop section that forms the inner lower sill. Then that area would need to be primed/stone chipped and painted. Once this operation has been accomplished then the body would need to be correctly shimmed back to the chassis to ensure all the body gaps are once again correct. This is not a 5 minute job and with workshop time priced at even a modest sum would still run to a very large figure on top of what is already a very expensive car.

FWIW as a point of information for those of you saying "Oh those brackets dont matter" I had a TR6 come in here quite a few years ago for some unrelated work and in checking over the car I found that it too hadnt had the brackets fitted when it had been restored a few years ago and what had happened was the shell had settled down over the chassis and there was four lumps up in the floor where the mounts should be and the floors sloped out slightly from the main chassis legs and there were also numerous cracks in the front inner wings where they met the toe boards.

Caveat emptor. I would not be buying that car unless it was half the asking price and I dont care what anyone on here says thats not an easy fix.

Stuart.

[qkingston]

That is very sound advice Stuart, it would be sensible to heed it, particularly for a car marketed at that price

David