Mick Forey Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 Haha, a classic car has the lowest overall impact on the environment. My TR3 has already outlasted modern cars that have an average lifespan of 8 years. Best not drive it in cities but on the open road! Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, stillp said: What about all the energy wasted (and CO2 generated) for exploration, production, transportation, refining, and distributing materials for batteries, as well as the manufacture and later disposal of those batteries? Modern EV batteries will outlast their car, can be re-purposed as home storage and then finally after say 25 year life they can be recycled. Can you re-purpose and recycle fossil fuel? Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Mick Forey said: On an apples to apples basis then you need to include all the energy wasted (and CO2 generated) for exploration, production, transportation, refining, transportation and distributing fossil fuel. Can't find any details on that, I wonder why? Charging a battery at home or at a destination from solar panels is very efficient and very low cost. There are now some 16.5 million EVs on the road around the world, they could all be charged from renewable energy if we have the willpower to get ourselves off the fossil fuel drug. The worlds best selling car is now an EV, the Tesla Model Y. The fossil fuel industry is fighting for its survival and doing a great job of spending its billions of profits on convincing the world that it is still needed. Are BP, Shell and its friends in the cartel going to spend any of the windfall profits from the Ukraine war on developing infrastructure to speed up the transition away from fossil fuels, I think not. Just enough to do a bit of greenwashing, then get on with the serious job of convincing us to burn more stuff polluting our cities and poisoning our grandchildren. Joy. Just remember Ella Kissi-Debrah and the coroner's verdict. Mick You do seem to have conveniently forgotten that fossil fuels are needed to provide all the plastics and paint that goes into your precious Tesla. Also a lot of the clothes your wearing and shoes your walking in. Or are you all clad in leather in which case your contributing to the methane from the cows that it came from. Greenwashing indeed. Stuart. Edited July 25, 2023 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 Some batteries will outlast the car. The company I used to work for had a less positive experience. Some of them will also be useful for home storage, but they're unlikely to last 25 years. However, you're right that in 25 years time recycling might be sustainable. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Mick Forey said: Modern EV batteries will outlast their car, can be re-purposed as home storage and then finally after say 25 year life they can be recycled. Can you re-purpose and recycle fossil fuel? That is a strange argument. The battery is not the fuel. You can certainly recycle or re-use a fuel tank, which is the equivalent, and it is certainly much easier than for a battery. Edited July 25, 2023 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, stuart said: You do seem to have conveniently forgotten that fossil fuels are needed to provide all the plastics and paint that goes into your precious Tesla. Also a lot of the clothes your wearing and shoes your walking in. An excellent use of fossil fuels. Don't forget all the medical products that come from oil. They all have a useful life and could be recycled if we want them to be.. Lifespan of fossil fuel in a car? 1 millisecond? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, stuart said: You do seem to have conveniently forgotten that fossil fuels are needed to provide all the plastics and paint that goes into your precious Tesla. Also a lot of the clothes your wearing and shoes your walking in. Or are you all clad in leather in which case your contributing to the methane from the cows that it came from. Greenwashing indeed. Stuart. Yep the daughter has a Tesla and needs new tires all round every 9k miles and they aren’t cheap Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Mick Forey said: Lifespan of fossil fuel in a car? 1 millisecond? ...and the lifetime of a unit of energy from a battery is ??? (actually energy is never lost - it is just changed into another form) Edited July 25, 2023 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 almost infinity replaceable without burning stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Mick Forey said: almost infinity replaceable without burning stuff. That isn't the same as the 'lifetime" of the fuel is it ! You keep changing the goalposts. Electrical energy is lost, ultimately to heat, in exactly the same way as the energy from burning petrol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) Hi Mick. not sure what drugs you are on currently but your argument is rambling nonsense . You are selecting convenient facts but not realising the implications of the grand scale from each and every fuel source. Roger Edited July 25, 2023 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 1 minute ago, RogerH said: Hi Micki, not sure what drugs you are on currently but your argument is rambling nonsense . You are selecting convenient facts but not realising the implications of the grand scale from each and very fuel source. Roger +1 Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, RobH said: Electrical energy is lost, ultimately to heat, in exactly the same way as the energy from burning petrol. Perfect. Fossil fuel derived energy is a one off, open ended process. Renewable energy using batteries as the medium to store it is efficient and repeatable for a long, long time. The alternative, which you appear to favour, is endlessly digging stuff up and burning it. Ground transportation, getting back to the original point, is not a good use of fossil fuel as there is a cleaner, cheaper and more effective way of doing the same job. Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 I am having a lot of fun Roger but I better get back to work! Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 14 minutes ago, Mick Forey said: Ground transportation, getting back to the original point, is not a good use of fossil fuel as there is a cleaner, cheaper and more effective way of doing the same job. Not when it involves each vehicle carrying around half-a-ton of batteries all the time, and even then being range deficient. Synthetic fuel made using 'renewable' energy is the best solution at the moment but all the politicians and pundits are so fixated on milk-floats that they can't see the wood for the trees. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 52 minutes ago, RobH said: Synthetic fuel made using 'renewable' energy is the best solution at the moment Totally agree - but only for aviation as there is no viable alternative. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bleednipple Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 1 hour ago, stuart said: You do seem to have conveniently forgotten that fossil fuels are needed to provide all the plastics and paint that goes into your precious Tesla. Also a lot of the clothes your wearing and shoes your walking in. Or are you all clad in leather in which case your contributing to the methane from the cows that it came from. Greenwashing indeed. Stuart. No offence but that sounds like a classic 'whaddabout' argument. No-one is saying (unless they're extremely dim) that reducing or even zeroing emissions from transportation is more than a partial answer to decarbonising the global economy. Emissions from plastics, steel, cement and fertiliser production will remain huge contributors. But nonetheless, the greatest part of an ICE car's contribution to GHG emissions comes from the fossil fuel it burns during its lifetime, which is why EVs (once powered largely/entirely by renewable leccie) represent a very large, and relatively painless way to hold back a very worthwhile chunk of global CO2 concentration in the atmos. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted July 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Mick Forey said: Perfect. Fossil fuel derived energy is a one off, open ended process. Renewable energy using batteries as the medium to store it is efficient and repeatable for a long, long time. The alternative, which you appear to favour, is endlessly digging stuff up and burning it. Ground transportation, getting back to the original point, is not a good use of fossil fuel as there is a cleaner, cheaper and more effective way of doing the same job. Mick Unfortunately Mick, battery powered cars are just not the answer. I hear all the jargon and logic that says electricity is clean and constantly available to recharge car batteries, but, any electricity we use is not clean . . . .simple Our electricity comes from gas driven turbines or nuclear reactors that are lined up along the vast of France. The wind turbines everyone crows about are unreliable and expensive to maintain and we get a lot less electricity from them than the figures bandied about, which are both selective and massaged Without the French power, we are in deficit and yes, I've heard the "we sell more than we take" argument, but if we stop this sell and buy process, we come up short. How are the raw materials, batteries and finished cars moved across the globe? Almost all the electric cars sold have been shipped . .All of them contain massive amounts of shipped components. These ships burn the most appalling rubbish . . .the remnants of the refining process. Every electric car hits the road, new, with about 7 year worth of contamination (compared to IC cars) on its back. Please, don't insult us by trying to peddle the appalling line that electric cars ard the answer to a maidens prayer, they aren't. High efficiency clean, petrol driven self charging hybrids, now these are a different story. Yes, dirty in manufacture; worse that ic cars, but better than electric. These are distinctly a stop gap solution until a long term solution is found. Either that, or drive a new small (ioo 1000cc) high efficiency petrol driven car, virtually no emissions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PodOne Posted July 25, 2023 Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, JohnG said: Unfortunately Mick, battery powered cars are just not the answer. Agree there not.Iits emperors new cloths time. It's not a climate crisis we face but a population crisis which no politicians want to talk about let alone take action on. Until this basic simple fact is absorbed every thing else is a waste of time. The current media mania and hysteria reporting that the end of the world is nigh if we don't make switch while making big companies richer. Who in truth care not one bit about the planet will be more than happy to supply the masses with what they think they need while the population explodes. Reduce it and the planet will return to balance and sustain a viable population. Not a starving one with no quality of life. Don't worry the end will come sooner rather than later on current trends. Me I have no intention of going electric and will keep my cars going for as long as possible, far greener. If they truly see electric as being greener why have them with rapid acceleration capability surly that energy could be used to increase the range and save energy or is it a cynical marketing hook. I wonder! Andy Edited July 26, 2023 by PodOne Grammar need to drink less! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted July 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2023 38 minutes ago, PodOne said: Agree there not its emperors new cloths time. It's not a climate crisis we face its a population crisis which no politicians want to talk about let alone take action on. Until this basis simple fact is absorbed every thing else is a waste of time. The current media mania and hysteria reporting reporting that the end of the world is nigh if we don't make switch while making big companies richer who in truth care not one bit about the planet will be more than happy to supply the masses with what they think they need while the population explodes. Reduce it and the planet will return to balance and sustain a viable population. Not a starving one with no quality of life. Don't worry he end will come sooner rather than later on current trends. Me I have no intention of going electric and will keep my cars going for as long as possible, far greener. If they truly see electric as being greener why have them with rapid acceleration capability surly that energy to increase the range and save energy or is it a cynical marketing hook. I wonder! Andy At the end of the day, Mother Nature will put things right. She likes her world to be in balance When it becomes unbalanced, for whatever reason, Mother Nature reacts. Usually, when she reacts, we suffer . . . . . . .just sayin' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Phil Read Posted July 26, 2023 Report Share Posted July 26, 2023 10 hours ago, JohnG said: At the end of the day, Mother Nature will put things right. She likes her world to be in balance When it becomes unbalanced, for whatever reason, Mother Nature reacts. Usually, when she reacts, we suffer . . . . . . .just sayin' I agree, mother nature sent along covid to reduce the worlds population but humans foiled that plan. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted July 26, 2023 Report Share Posted July 26, 2023 Yep, humans are doing their best to stop natural selection in their species, at the expense of other species. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted July 26, 2023 Report Share Posted July 26, 2023 Another BEV fire: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12338705/One-sailor-dead-23-evacuated-burning-18-500-tonne-cargo-ship-carrying-3-000-cars-North-Sea-Holland-electric-vehicle-caught-fire.html I wonder what the total consequent emissions from that will be? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted July 26, 2023 Report Share Posted July 26, 2023 Nothing is without risk: https://thedriven.io/2023/05/16/petrol-and-diesel-cars-20-times-more-likely-to-catch-fire-than-evs/ https://thedriven.io/2023/07/21/explosions-were-heard-hydrogen-bus-destroyed-by-fire-while-refuelling/ https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/31/horse-show-cancelled-after-car-park-fire-at-liverpool-echo-arena Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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