At Last . . . .Some Hydrogen Sense

[RobH]

An interesting development on availability of natural hydrogen (as opposed to manufactured):

https://archive.ph/dZ2eK

[Peter Cobbold]

11 hours ago, RobH said:

An interesting development on availability of natural hydrogen (as opposed to manufactured):

https://archive.ph/dZ2eK

Tks Rob, completely new to me. Looks like a game-changer, if storage and transport issues can be overcome. Peter

[Peter Cobbold]

More info: https://geoscientist.online/sections/unearthed/natural-hydrogen-the-new-frontier/

[john.r.davies]

On 7/31/2022 at 10:40 AM, Lebro said:

Firefighters use fibreglass tanks for their breathing masks (compressed air to approx 200 bar I think) Scuba tanks are steel or aluminium, & again ate rated at 200 or for some 250 bar. These have to be inspected & pressure tested regularly.

Bob

Those tanks (thin aluminium, Kevlar wound) are at 2000psi, about 140bar, but no doubt the tech could be extended to 700bar.

[RobH]

1 minute ago, john.r.davies said:

no doubt the tech could be extended to 700bar.

It is John. That is a quite common method of producing high pressure tanks without excessive weight.   (The idea dates back a long way. In the 19th century, some large naval guns were made using wound wire to reinforce the barrels. )  

[tthomson]

On 7/31/2022 at 3:21 PM, Peter Cobbold said:

The problem is fundamental: the hydrogen molecule is the smallest of all molecules and can pass through all solids, even metals. Leakage through the wall of perfectly manufactured containers and hoses is inevitable. The allowable leakage rate is an important factor in safety as this review shows. Garages will need to have known airflow changes:

https://h2tools.org/sites/default/files/2019-08/paper_-_part_1.pdf

They briefly mention risk of hydrogen gas accumulating within the vehicle compartments.

I read this thread with interest, while considering the exact concern that Peter has highlighted. Additionally any metal used to store Hydrogen will occlude the gas to become more brittle. There is also the difficulty in storing and delivering Hydrogen to vehicles in a refilling station. Considering the stored energy associated with the pressurised Hydrogen stored in a vehicle then multiply it by the factor required to provide refilling options for possibly hundreds of such vehicles and the energy stored in the refilling station is enormous. I have not worked out the additional energy when the Hydrogen is burned, but it probably increases the energy released by a significant factor. Far more than any petrol fire. Add to this the need to be able to measure the volume of stored Hydogen in the refilling storage tank and it adds a further problem, because such a system needs to retain the integrity of the storage container to ensure the pressure is evenly distributed.

I'm not saying these problems cannot be resolved, but one has to question the validity of following this route, when there are far simpler options.

Two examples providing electric energy:

1. Use Sodium Ion batteries - water based electrolyte, no fire hazard, no exotic elements like Lithium or Cobalt needed - Use the same manufacturing methods and systems as Lithium Ion batteries. About the same energy density as Lithium Ion. Very low cost materials. Have a look at  Faradion

2. Aluminium Air batteries - Organic water based electrolyte, no fire hazard, Aluminium is readily available (one of the most common elements on the planet). These are not rechargeable, but easily and simply replaced and recycled where the Aluminium is recovered. So a replacement could be conducted in a couple of minutes, and distance on a replacement is about 1200 miles for a mid sized vehicle. Look up Trevor Jones in Tavistock

What I see are people looking at Internal combustion options when these are not the best way forward. A petrol engine in good condition is at best 40% efficient, a diesel engine at best about 45% efficient. Modern electric motors are more than 90% efficient

The biggest concern with electric vehicles is range anxiety, and I know this from real experience, but If you can go 1200 miles and then eke out a few extra miles by taking a bit of Aluminium foil with you. It gets my vote. (The Aluminium foil is not realistic, but I'm sure you get my meaning).

 

[JohnG]

Well, gents, I know that there are those that highlight all the problems with hydrogen for transport, but Lord Bamford, having been snubbed by the UK gov't, put his money into hydrogen and has succeeded.

 

They are out there, running and working

 

JCB's running fettled diesel engines (there's a post somewhere on here saying you can't convert petrol/diesel engines for use with hydrogen), maybe Lord Bamford missed that bit.

 

I said early on, it just needs someone with the money and the will to make the change, I didn't expect it to be JCB

 

https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/jcb-hydrogen-world-first-makes-international-debut/#:~:text=Lord Bamford said%3A “The unique,also offer other significant benefits.

[Motorsport Mickey]

1 hour ago, JohnG said:

Well, gents, I know that there are those that highlight all the problems with hydrogen for transport, but Lord Bamford, having been snubbed by the UK gov't, put his money into hydrogen and has succeeded.

 

They are out there, running and working

 

JCB's running fettled diesel engines (there's a post somewhere on here saying you can't convert petrol/diesel engines for use with hydrogen), maybe Lord Bamford missed that bit.

 

I said early on, it just needs someone with the money and the will to make the change, I didn't expect it to be JCB

 

https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/jcb-hydrogen-world-first-makes-international-debut/#:~:text=Lord Bamford said%3A “The unique,also offer other significant benefits.

JCBs are slow to the market John, you may have missed my earlier post, it's not just using the trucks for a business but servicing also ...

This week I was having a coffee with a friend who still works in the truck business. He deals in finance and had just come back from an early adopter council with 6 x Refuse vehicles with Hydrogen conversions on them, at 3 x each of the typical £130K purchase cost.

He had viewed 2 of the trucks at the local Truck dealership where they have been in for work, 1 parked outside in the yard and the other on a bay inside. The workshop was deserted in the other 4 bays apart from a mechanic working on it. He asked where the rest of the workshop staff were and they were on "an enforced break", apparently safety regs say no other work in the building when the hydrogen vehicles are in the bay. No turning lights on and off (all have to be the sealed variety as used down t'pit) and no clinking of tools or walking about in "segged" boots ! By gum they are taking this seriously, apparently if the trucks go in with full fuel in the tanks the increased interior workshop heat can cause vast expansion which cause the tanks to "boil off" losing the hydrogen and causing a huge fire risk.

...I still await for the next "real deal", I don't think Hydrogen is it. The alternative "house use" tests of Hydrogen conversion of cookers and heating systems, of a small town that was planned is now cancelled. The Hydrogen molecule size proving too elusive to be contained within existing pipework within the ground and on house appliances, being able to permeate even through metals unless of a suitable material.

Mick Richards 

[Peter Cobbold]

10 hours ago, JohnG said:

Well, gents, I know that there are those that highlight all the problems with hydrogen for transport, but Lord Bamford, having been snubbed by the UK gov't, put his money into hydrogen and has succeeded.

 

They are out there, running and working

 

JCB's running fettled diesel engines (there's a post somewhere on here saying you can't convert petrol/diesel engines for use with hydrogen), maybe Lord Bamford missed that bit.

 

I said early on, it just needs someone with the money and the will to make the change, I didn't expect it to be JCB

 

https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/jcb-hydrogen-world-first-makes-international-debut/#:~:text=Lord Bamford said%3A “The unique,also offer other significant benefits.

Bamford is well-known petrol head in classic racing. 'Willie Eckerslyke' used to race Bamford's 250F Maserati in the '70s.

But without a hydrogen distribution infrastructure his initiative will struggle.

They do make battery 360 diggers, small ones.

Peter

[Peter Cobbold]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:59 PM, tthomson said:

I read this thread with interest, while considering the exact concern that Peter has highlighted. Additionally any metal used to store Hydrogen will occlude the gas to become more brittle. There is also the difficulty in storing and delivering Hydrogen to vehicles in a refilling station. Considering the stored energy associated with the pressurised Hydrogen stored in a vehicle then multiply it by the factor required to provide refilling options for possibly hundreds of such vehicles and the energy stored in the refilling station is enormous. I have not worked out the additional energy when the Hydrogen is burned, but it probably increases the energy released by a significant factor. Far more than any petrol fire. Add to this the need to be able to measure the volume of stored Hydogen in the refilling storage tank and it adds a further problem, because such a system needs to retain the integrity of the storage container to ensure the pressure is evenly distributed.

I'm not saying these problems cannot be resolved, but one has to question the validity of following this route, when there are far simpler options.

Two examples providing electric energy:

1. Use Sodium Ion batteries - water based electrolyte, no fire hazard, no exotic elements like Lithium or Cobalt needed - Use the same manufacturing methods and systems as Lithium Ion batteries. About the same energy density as Lithium Ion. Very low cost materials. Have a look at  Faradion

2. Aluminium Air batteries - Organic water based electrolyte, no fire hazard, Aluminium is readily available (one of the most common elements on the planet). These are not rechargeable, but easily and simply replaced and recycled where the Aluminium is recovered. So a replacement could be conducted in a couple of minutes, and distance on a replacement is about 1200 miles for a mid sized vehicle. Look up Trevor Jones in Tavistock

What I see are people looking at Internal combustion options when these are not the best way forward. A petrol engine in good condition is at best 40% efficient, a diesel engine at best about 45% efficient. Modern electric motors are more than 90% efficient

The biggest concern with electric vehicles is range anxiety, and I know this from real experience, but If you can go 1200 miles and then eke out a few extra miles by taking a bit of Aluminium foil with you. It gets my vote. (The Aluminium foil is not realistic, but I'm sure you get my meaning).

 

Tks for the heads up Tony on the sodium-water battery. I would not use Tesla lihtium batteries for domestic storage due to the fire risk. Years ago Aquion started selling 'salt water' batteries,but the company failed. Faradion are in Sheffield. lets hope they succeed against Musk's inextinguishable fireworks.

Peter

[stillp]

7 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Bamford is well-known petrol head in classic racing. 'Willie Eckerslyke' used to race Bamford's 250F Maserati in the '70s.

That 250F used to be in the reception area of JCB Research, along with another 50s GP car - possibly a Vanwall? I always thought he was taking a risk, as the reception was unmanned!

Pete

[JohnG]

8 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Bamford is well-known petrol head in classic racing. 'Willie Eckerslyke' used to race Bamford's 250F Maserati in the '70s.

But without a hydrogen distribution infrastructure his initiative will struggle.

They do make battery 360 diggers, small ones.

Peter

 

But without a hydrogen distribution infrastructure his initiative will struggle.

Absolutely agree

They do make battery 360 diggers, small ones.

Yes, they are always looking for the edge.

 

Until someone (or two or three) take the initiative, there is not a chance of infrastructure, it will be pressure from those who know that battery cars are not the mid, or long term answer to the problem.

 

Toyota

JCB

Hyundai 

Already producing hydrogen powered vehicles

Land Rover

BMW

Vauxhall

All promising hydrogen cars within the next 2 or 3 years 

 

If governments continue to ignore the reality, there could well be some discontent within the motor industry and the general public

 

[JohnG]

17 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

JCBs are slow to the market John, you may have missed my earlier post, it's not just using the trucks for a business but servicing also ...

This week I was having a coffee with a friend who still works in the truck business. He deals in finance and had just come back from an early adopter council with 6 x Refuse vehicles with Hydrogen conversions on them, at 3 x each of the typical £130K purchase cost.

He had viewed 2 of the trucks at the local Truck dealership where they have been in for work, 1 parked outside in the yard and the other on a bay inside. The workshop was deserted in the other 4 bays apart from a mechanic working on it. He asked where the rest of the workshop staff were and they were on "an enforced break", apparently safety regs say no other work in the building when the hydrogen vehicles are in the bay. No turning lights on and off (all have to be the sealed variety as used down t'pit) and no clinking of tools or walking about in "segged" boots ! By gum they are taking this seriously, apparently if the trucks go in with full fuel in the tanks the increased interior workshop heat can cause vast expansion which cause the tanks to "boil off" losing the hydrogen and causing a huge fire risk.

...I still await for the next "real deal", I don't think Hydrogen is it. The alternative "house use" tests of Hydrogen conversion of cookers and heating systems, of a small town that was planned is now cancelled. The Hydrogen molecule size proving too elusive to be contained within existing pipework within the ground and on house appliances, being able to permeate even through metals unless of a suitable material.

Mick Richards 

 

Mick

You are not wrong, the problems are real

I just fall back on my belief that, once someone sees the potential profit involved, these problems will be overcome.

It isn't beyond the wit of man, all it needs is the incentive and solutions will be found.

London and New Zealand are two authorities already running hydrogen driven buses 

 

It's possible.  . . All it needs is someone to grasp the infrastructure nettle

[stillp]

22 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

apparently safety regs say no other work in the building when the hydrogen vehicles are in the bay.

Which "safety regs" are those then? I suspect something made up by a local council employee who doesn't understand risk assessment.

22 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

apparently if the trucks go in with full fuel in the tanks the increased interior workshop heat can cause vast expansion which cause the tanks to "boil off" losing the hydrogen and causing a huge fire risk.

So what happens when they're outside and the sun comes out?

Pete

[Motorsport Mickey]

19 minutes ago, stillp said:

Which "safety regs" are those then? I suspect something made up by a local council employee who doesn't understand risk assessment.

So what happens when they're outside and the sun comes out?

Pete

Without having questioned the manufacturer engineers, I suspect Pete that If they are in use running on roads, the hydrogen level in the tanks is constantly recycled because they likely (I haven't checked) have an excess amount in the supply pipes to the engine which is not used (like diesel injection) and returned to the tank. That alone will harmonise the temperature in the tanks, just as unused diesel equalises temperature between tank and fuel lines running outside the tank due to exposure to wind between tank and engine...just like a rad.

As for your distain for "safety regs" and councils in general please calm yourself and reread my post which said

..."viewed 2 of the trucks at the local Truck dealership (nothing to do with the council) where they have been in for work, The workshop was deserted in the other 4 bays apart from a mechanic working on it. He asked where the rest of the workshop staff were and they were on "an enforced break", apparently safety regs ... (these will undoubtedly be the dealership regs informed by their manufacturer of the vehicle), which say no other work in the building when the hydrogen vehicles are in the bay 

Personally, I would expect that specifying that Hydrogen vehicles should not be parked inside premises with more than a half tank of fuel on board, would be a sensible workable precaution, but then I don't know what the expansion rate of the Hydrogen is per degree .

Mick Richards

[stillp]

Sorry Mick, years of experience dealing with councils who made up "regulations" to save them having to perform a proper risk assessment. Mostly electrical and mechanical, I did my best to stay away from flammable atmospheres.

At one time I drove  a Vauxhall converted to run on petrol or LPG. Sometimes people would say to me "Isn't that dangerous? What if it leaks?" to which I would reply "What if your petrol tank leaks?". There were pressure and flow sensors. Amusing that it wasn't allowed in the Channel Tunnel, yet caravans fitted with larger LPG cylinders were...

Pete

[Paul Hogan]

All this is very interesting but going back to one of the basic problems, isn't it the stuff coming out of the exhaust which is said to be causing global warming? That being the case,  surely the answer isn't to get rid of internal combustion engines which have become more and more efficient over the years but to change the fuel they burn. 

Hoges.  

[Paul Hogan]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:31 AM, keith1948 said:

I remember chatting to Harold Roxbee Cox (Lord Kings Norton) who worked on the R101 airship back in the 1920's 1930's. I am not sure if it was the R101 or the Hindenburg but  luckily for him he gave up his seat to someone else on the very flight that the airship caught fire killing most of them on board. He witnessed the airship go up in flames knowing that he could easily have been on board. He was quite an interesting character. He used to turn up in a 6.3 litres V8 Bristol 411.  A beautiful car with a superb red leather interior. Look at the link to see detailed photos

Keith

https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/bristol/411/1970/769805

It would have to the Hindenburg Keith as the R101 caught fire over rural France and so he wouldn't have been there to see it burn.  But to see the Hindenburg he would have to have been at Lakehurst so maybe he was going on a return flight?  As Chief of the Defence Staff he was also interested in the 'flying saucers' debate, writing the foreword to  'Above Top Secret' by Timothy Good

[RobH]

On 7/21/2023 at 8:59 PM, Motorsport Mickey said:

Personally, I would expect that specifying that Hydrogen vehicles should not be parked inside premises with more than a half tank of fuel on board, would be a sensible workable precaution, but then I don't know what the expansion rate of the Hydrogen is per degree .

Ambient heating probably isn't a problem.  

When fast-filling a car tank with hydrogen, the necessary compression raises the temperature considerably and the gas has to be pre-cooled to prevent the temperature rising to a dangerous level which would compromise the strength of the pressure vessel.  85 degrees C has is quoted as a limit in the attached link.   Once filled, the tank temperature will reduce to ambient so in effect the gas in the filled tank has already been at a temperature much higher than could be experienced through subsequent solar heating.  

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319912027346

[Peter Cobbold]

1 hour ago, Paul Hogan said:

It would have to the Hindenburg Keith as the R101 caught fire over rural France and so he wouldn't have been there to see it burn.  But to see the Hindenburg he would have to have been at Lakehurst so maybe he was going on a return flight?  As Chief of the Defence Staff he was also interested in the 'flying saucers' debate, writing the foreword to  'Above Top Secret' by Timothy Good

Paul, Yes he tried to open up the FS debate, but secrecy prevailed.  Senior air crew are not immune to high strangeness. AVM Victor Goddard's precognition in 1935 of Drem airfield as it would become in 1939: https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/victor-goddard-paranomal-experiences.html

Peter

[Mick Forey]

Burning any fuel in any internal combustion engine is inefficient. They are only about 40% efficient, therefore you are throwing away 60% of the energy to heat. Even hydrogen fuel cells are only about 75% efficient, the rest is heat loss. 98% of the worlds hydrogen is produced from fossil fuel in a very inefficient process which also produces large quantities of CO2, that is why it is so expensive.

Electric motors about 95% efficient. Electric is the future of road transportation, even Toyota admit that now having struggled with promoting hydrogen for years. They are now investing heavily in solid state batteries trying to leapfrog the current technology and their competitors who have left them in the dust.

Mick

Edited July 25, 2023 by Mick Forey

[RobH]

4 hours ago, Mick Forey said:

Electric motors about 95% efficient

But that is only the efficiency at the end of the chain Mick. You are discounting generation losses , transmission losses and battery losses.  Fast charging of a battery generates lots of heat,  and discharging it does the same which is why battery thermal management is important and makers are now resorting to water-cooling. The charging heat losses mean the battery charge efficiency is about 80%  if charged slowly but could be as as low as 50% for a fast charge. The same thing happens during discharge, the faster this is the more heat is generated in the battery. 

ie if you have a 50kWh battery it will take around 60kWh to fully charge it slowly and you will only be able to use about 40kWh of that charge to run the car, the rest goes in waste heat. An overall efficiency of around 66%.  ( it's difficult to find hard published figures for this. I wonder why?  The equivalent losses for a petrol car are zero of course)

Added to these losses is the need to heat batteries in very cold weather before they will accept a charge.  I cannot find any published figures for that so I have not included it.  

For a BEV, generation and power transmission efficiency is about 73%, battery efficiency 66%, motor efficiency 95% so overall efficiency is about 45% from generator to car.  That is a lot better than an ICE car  but it is nowhere near the figures usually trotted out.  

I agree that the safety implications of hydrogen are challenging, probably more so than any other fuel but unless some miraculous developments are made with battery technology, the BEV with its major compromises remains a sticking-plaster solution to a non-problem. 

https://www.sae.org/news/2018/11/bev-thermal-challenges

Edited July 25, 2023 by RobH

[Mick Forey]

On an apples to apples basis then you need to include all the energy wasted (and CO2 generated) for exploration, production, transportation, refining, transportation and distributing fossil fuel. Can't find any details on that, I wonder why?

Charging a battery at home or at a destination from solar panels is very efficient and very low cost. There are now some 16.5 million EVs on the road around the world, they could all be charged from renewable energy if we have the willpower to get ourselves off the fossil fuel drug. The worlds best selling car is now an EV, the Tesla Model Y.

The fossil fuel industry is fighting for its survival and doing a great job of spending its billions of profits on convincing the world that it is still needed. Are BP, Shell and its friends in the cartel going to spend any of the windfall profits from the Ukraine war on developing infrastructure to speed up the transition away from fossil fuels, I think not. Just enough to do a bit of greenwashing, then get on with the serious job of convincing us to burn more stuff polluting our cities and poisoning our grandchildren. Joy.

Just remember Ella Kissi-Debrah and the coroner's verdict.

Mick

[RobH]

15 minutes ago, Mick Forey said:

Just remember Ella Kissi-Debrah and the coroner's verdict.

Well hydrogen cars would improve the air quality wouldn't they Mick ?     With the above outlook regarding oil, I wonder you have the temerity to own and run a TR !     

 

[stillp]

4 hours ago, Mick Forey said:

 

Electric motors about 95% efficient. 

Some electric motors can achieve 95% efficiency under some circumstances. That's neglecting the losses in the control system.

35 minutes ago, Mick Forey said:

you need to include all the energy wasted (and CO2 generated) for exploration, production, transportation, refining, transportation and distributing fossil fuel.

What about all the energy wasted (and CO2 generated) for exploration, production, transportation, refining, and distributing materials for batteries, as well as the manufacture and later disposal of those batteries?

Pete