SuzanneH Posted October 1, 2020 Report Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8793235/Matt-Hancock-wrongly-claims-vitamin-D-doesnt-work-Covid-19.html Light at the end of a long tunnel ? Peter Well done we are getting there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
little jim Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Mr Trump now has it, (corona virus). Wonder if he is glugging down a bit of bleach, instead of rubbing it in his toupee?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Continuing my project that brings covid-related subjects other than VitD into the discussion, See: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2818-3 12% of Europeans, half of south Asians, but very few of African descent carry genes that homo sapiens acquired by interbreeding with Neanderthals.   One of these sequences has been found to be associated with a three-times risk of respiratory failure in the face of Covid. I am concerned to read that such people are so vulnerable to Covid.  Many of us here may carry these genes, but those with all-over body hair and a prominent jaw may carry more than most. Stay well, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rod1883 Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) Yes, I saw this news John. How does this square with the BAME risk increase that has been in the news since very near the start of the pandemic? Perhaps it is only the Asian aspect of BAME - although that is not what has been said previously. I imagine it, as everything, is far more complex than any single risk factor. Rod Edited October 2, 2020 by Rod1883 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Neanderthal genes do appear in African people https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30059-3 but much less than south Asians.   And less than Europeans.  So it would seem that this is just part of the risk environment. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SuzanneH Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) New Scientist re Vitamin D, see Google today. image is too large to post here. Edited October 2, 2020 by SuzanneH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 1 hour ago, john.r.davies said: Continuing my project that brings covid-related subjects other than VitD into the discussion, See: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2818-3 12% of Europeans, half of south Asians, but very few of African descent carry genes that homo sapiens acquired by interbreeding with Neanderthals.   One of these sequences has been found to be associated with a three-times risk of respiratory failure in the face of Covid. I am concerned to read that such people are so vulnerable to Covid.  Many of us here may carry these genes, but those with all-over body hair and a prominent jaw may carry more than most. Stay well, John The gene is a member of the solute carrrier family, SLC--- It codes for a protien that associates with the ACE-2 receptor that the virus uses to enter the cell. Bangladeshis have a high penetration of the neanderthal variant. BUT the covid death rate is 5000 out of 160million, so SLC--- cannot be killing them, or something else is prtecting them and my expectation would be sunlight. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 21 minutes ago, SuzanneH said: New Scientist re Vitamin D, see Google today. image is too large to post here. At long last NS has caught up with science. I wrote a month ago with a reply to Last Word question about D3 which was edited to elimminate any mention of immunity. IÂ retracted the reply. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 52 minutes ago, Rod1883 said: Yes, I saw this news John. How does this square with the BAME risk increase that has been in the news since very near the start of the pandemic? Perhaps it is only the Asian aspect of BAME - although that is not what has been said previously. I imagine it, as everything, is far more complex than any single risk factor. Rod BAMES moving to northern climes are atmuch higher risk of covid death. Deaths per million in Uganda <1 per million. Ugandans living in UK, 1.9x620 = 1000 deaths per million If its not sunlight-D3 lacking in UK than there is something really bad about living conditions in UK, 1000 times worse than Uganda. Peter  Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Rod1883 said: Yes, I saw this news John. How does this square with the BAME risk increase that has been in the news since very near the start of the pandemic? Perhaps it is only the Asian aspect of BAME - although that is not what has been said previously. I imagine it, as everything, is far more complex than any single risk factor. Rod Hi Rod, they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Very little UV here during the winter - they need supplements.  Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, RogerH said: Hi Rod, they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Very little UV here during the winter - they need supplements.  Roger Yes, but even BAME doctors do not know about D3, and many have died. This blog post was in April: http://www.drdavidgrimes.com/2020/04/vitamin-d-and-doctors-in-uk-dying-from.html Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Hi Peter, quite so. I have been getting very angry that the profession is being let down so badly. Even if D3 is shown not to work surely any port in the storm is better than none  Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 43 minutes ago, RogerH said: Hi Peter, quite so. I have been getting very angry that the profession is being let down so badly. Even if D3 is shown not to work surely any port in the storm is better than none  Roger Roger, I think the word has got around the profession. The nurse who did our flu jab yesterday told us her aunt a doctor in Cornwall had told her about D3 for covid. Our campaign group has been making a lot of noise - since Februrary ! TRRers in doubt best not ask their GP how much D3 supplement is advised, rather ask how much she/he takes personally !! Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Has anybody got a transcript of the New Scientist article, I am too mean to pay for it. Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 See: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2256074-can-vitamin-d-supplements-help-protect-against-covid-19/ It criticises "most studies" for being small, observational, concerned with hospital pts already infected, not adequately randomised, etc.  It points to a recent Lancet review https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(20)30268-0/fulltext  that concluded that " there is a chance that their implementation [Supplements of 400-600IU/day] might also reduce the impact of COVID-19 in populations where vitamin D deficiency is prevalent; there is nothing to lose from their implementation, and potentially much to gain." So, common sense is to take a supplement.   Megadoses, for prevention or treatment have no evidential support. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Hi John, what is a mega dose. Bearing in mind up to 20,000IU/d can be absorbed by white skinned locals.? Â Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 OK, "Mega" implies a million.   " "Hammer" VitD meams up to 100,000IU/day    Book, available on Amazon so I was out by a factor of ten. Big deal, especially when such doses are on the edge of toxicity. This should be compared with the advocacy for megadose VitC, by among other Linus Pauling.  He suggested that we should take 10 grams a day, when the accepted dose is 50milligrams.   That's only 200 time the standard dose, but was still called "Megadosing".   We should not discount the advice of one who received a Nobel prize, twice, but in this instance Pauling was a complete fruit-loop. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Thanks John, I feel quite safe now. Â Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 14 minutes ago, john.r.davies said: See: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2256074-can-vitamin-d-supplements-help-protect-against-covid-19/ It criticises "most studies" for being small, observational, concerned with hospital pts already infected, not adequately randomised, etc.  It points to a recent Lancet review https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(20)30268-0/fulltext  that concluded that " there is a chance that their implementation [Supplements of 400-600IU/day] might also reduce the impact of COVID-19 in populations where vitamin D deficiency is prevalent; there is nothing to lose from their implementation, and potentially much to gain." So, common sense is to take a supplement.   Megadoses, for prevention or treatment have no evidential support. John That metanalysis by Martineau is rubbish. It is based upon a large number of RCTs that used a single low dose of D3 apporved by regulatory D3 panels such as NICE. Those panels decided the dose on the basis of bone health, not on D3 levels needed to optimise the immune systems. My opinion is here: https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2618/rr Evidential support is given by Schwalfenberg and the Cordoba trial, but are ignored as RCTs are regarded as Gold Standard, for the time being. I shall not be renewing my sub to NS. It is full of llazy journalism written by journos many who lack a background in science. It regurgitates stuff I had seen 2 -3 weeks earlier on phys.org The few articles penned by researchers themselves are good, those I shall miss. The Daily Fail is more informative on D3 for covid than NS. The most advanced researcher in UK on D3 and immune systems is Prof Hewitson who did some of his best work in Arizona, and tells them he takes 2000 IU pd: https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-science/2020/07/22/coronavirus-research-study-link-between-vitamin-d-deficiency-covid-19/5445070002/  So we take our choice. RCTs designed upon bone criteria and regurgitated by NS, or the abundant science that rather more D3 is needed to ensure immune health. Peter   Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 17 minutes ago, john.r.davies said: OK, "Mega" implies a million.   " "Hammer" VitD meams up to 100,000IU/day    Book, available on Amazon so I was out by a factor of ten. Big deal, especially when such doses are on the edge of toxicity. This should be compared with the advocacy for megadose VitC, by among other Linus Pauling.  He suggested that we should take 10 grams a day, when the accepted dose is 50milligrams.   That's only 200 time the standard dose, but was still called "Megadosing".   We should not discount the advice of one who received a Nobel prize, twice, but in this instance Pauling was a complete fruit-loop. These megadose fanatics are doing a useful job in exploring the upper limits of safety. Megadosing at daily 50,000 or more is used by a Brazilian clinic to control MS ( the Coimbra protocol). A doctor linked to the clinic took 100,000IU pd for best part of ayear until feeling peculiar. But the clinic also takes great care to monitor urine and blood calcium and PTH. Most pts have to limit the calcium in thier diet by avoding dairy products etc. Such high doses are really unknown territory at the individual level. I found hints of calciuria when taking 10,000IU pd, with no obvious benefit ot the PD. So am now on 4000 and with improved waterworks. If I had history of kidney disease or stones I'd get calcium levels measured,but I dont and my curiosity is blunted by covid at the surgery. Peter  . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 This morning's work: https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3790/rr Feel free to email your MP to ask why DoHSC advises D3 supplements for bone and muscle health and not for COVID. MPs are talking it over behind the scenes, you might find a positive response. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 https://www.nutraingredients.com/Article/2020/10/01/COVID-19-Scientists-raise-the-vitamin-D-alarm There are several big beasts of D3Â research in the group list. Holick, Hollis, Grant... Note in the text Hewison is pushing for 1000 IU, but himself has taken 2000 for years (see above). Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 2, 2020 Report Share Posted October 2, 2020 POTUS given Regeneron experimental antibodies and vitamin D source Beeb news 11 pm. Cat out of bag ? Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SuzanneH Posted October 3, 2020 Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) Scroll down. Full circle, we are back to where the Vitamin D3 discussion began several years ago now. Edited October 3, 2020 by SuzanneH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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