Oil Cooler

[john.r.davies]

What a lot of opinion!

So why not, here's mine.

 

Unless you KNOW that your oil is getting too hot, there no point in an oil cooler.

The ideal is around a little more than water boiling point, 100C or 212F. If it gets as high as 120C then something should be done, but that is NOT going to happen when you idle in heavy traffic, but when you are working the engine hard. So MEASURE the oil temperature. Lots of ways to do so;

a dipstick oil temp probe http://www.machine7.com/product.php?xProd=3261

an InfraRed 'pyrometer' gun onto the sump http://www.gearbest.com/temperature-instruments/pp_218366.html?currency=GBP&gclid=CILd-YH9kM0CFUJmGwod8kMAbg

or http://www.motosport.com/factory-effex-temperature-stickers (one-time, max.temp indicators)

 

If you do need a cooler then fit an thermostat! You are unlikely to need the cooler, most of the time, so the oil will be too cold most of the time. Cooler in circuit or not, the system will be full-flow, with a little more resistance - a very little - but no significant drip in bearing oil flow.

 

DO NOT use the mancky connections and hoses that come with your cooler kit, that fasten with Jubilee clips. You will notice that your cooler has threaded connections, and a visit to your local hydraulics shop (Yellow pages?) will get you some custom-made, swaged-end, threaded-connector hoses that will not leak! Or fall off!

 

John

PS my second and third hypertext links don't work, although they are correct, (board glitch?) so copy the text and post it on a spare browser window J.

Edited June 5, 2016 by john.r.davies

[JohnRoberts]

Thanks Guys

 

The power of this forum is amazing.I shall be taking all of this information on board

Hope to see some of you at Lincoln

 

Best regards JohnR

[GT6M]

Meb,e of intrest to some unknowing folk,

 

alott of folk fit thees things, even factory fit,

and,as already been said on post on here, the pressure drops.

it drops cos of the unsatisfactry fittings used by folk that sell, an fit them

woe obviously ev nee idea whats going on

 

Some of you thats built engines,or farted aboot wid em should no, that the oil feed int pump is

15mm/ 9/16th ish,

butt, wen folk fit thees cooler and their pipes, they mostly go for 3/8th fittings, or mebe 1/2 bsp.

 

the fittings ona 3/8 will eva hole thru em of aboot a 1/4 to 5/16th

and the 1/2 aboot 3/8th to 7/16th, if yer lucky.

same for the hoses, they got to match the barbs ont fittings.

 

A 3/8th or 1/2 BSP fitting, Has no that sized hole int fittings

 

Butt,if using house hold pipe, then 1/2 inch will have a 1/2 inch or v v near bore int pipe

 

Even going to 5/8th /3/4 fittings, if they are of the hydraulic type, the holes will be still small.

A 3/4 -1inch hydro fitting will ev aboot the same hole as hole int pump

butt will be farr too bigg in the fittings and pipe dept to fit onto yer car.

 

this could also be why some folk ev probs wid bearing running dry at speed

yer actually restricting the flow of oil wid thee,s under size fittings / pipes.!!!

 

tek note Alan OT, wot size wols in fittings are yours !!

 

M

Edited June 9, 2016 by GT6M

[JohnRoberts]

Hi Guys

 

Here is an update. I change the oil and filter for 20w-60 Dynalite with ZPPD for classic cars. The oil pressure at 850 rpm when hot =15psi. 60 psi at 2000rpm.

Just received an Infrared Thermometer, so I will be able to check oil temp.next time out.

 

Best regards JohnR

[DRD]

Hi Guys

 

Here is an update. I change the oil and filter for 20w-60 Dynalite with ZPPD for classic cars. The oil pressure at 850 rpm when hot =15psi. 60 psi at 2000rpm.

Just received an Infrared Thermometer, so I will be able to check oil temp.next time out.

 

Best regards JohnR

 

Sounds pretty much what I get, with a 33K mileage engine and the same oil.

[Tim D.]

Get pretty much middle of the gauge after a hard run (spirited laps around spa) with an oil cooler.

Engine had new bearings but no regrind.

Tim

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

I know this is the wrong forum for a TR4A question but it is related to a post above.

 

I have just rebuilt my engine.

New crank, new top and bottom bearings on the con rods, new rocker shaft with good fitting rockers, no engine oil leaks.

 

At start up cold it is apprx 60/70 psi 800rpm.

After a decent run at apprx 2500 rpm for most of the time the oil at 800rpm drops to 15/20psi at over 1500rpm it is apprx 60psi.

Water temp - normal

 

Is the pump such that is has little output at the low revs. Or is there something naughty going on.

 

Roger

[GT6M]

its a poitive displacement, so flow changes wid revs,

 

butt, i suggest ye get one of thee,s Rodger, will help keep yer oil fresh.

 

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&products_id=40&zenid=-Ja,O4pHbpUizH6TNcbCG2

 

M

[stuart]

Hi Folks,

I know this is the wrong forum for a TR4A question but it is related to a post above.

 

I have just rebuilt my engine.

New crank, new top and bottom bearings on the con rods, new rocker shaft with good fitting rockers, no engine oil leaks.

 

At start up cold it is apprx 60/70 psi 800rpm.

After a decent run at apprx 2500 rpm for most of the time the oil at 800rpm drops to 15/20psi at over 1500rpm it is apprx 60psi.

Water temp - normal

 

Is the pump such that is has little output at the low revs. Or is there something naughty going on.

 

Roger

Should be about 20 at hot tickover really so just tweak your relief valve a tad though its close enough to be OK

Stuart.

[RogerH]

Hi Stuart,

that sounds like a good idea, easily done.

 

Another thought (it must be the hot weather) if the oil temp should be about that of the coolant water (or bit hotter) 80'C+ has anybody considered

running the coolant from the rad through a matrix of pipes in the sump.

I would have thought 8mm cooper would easily fit.

Could still be thermostatically controlled but perhaps not required.

 

Just a thought !!

 

Roger

[Guest ntc]

It is tooooooooooooooo low what oil are you running?

[astontr6]

Roger,

 

Did you lap the release valve and fit a new spring? Did you check the running clearances of the rotors in the oil pump. End float s/b around 0.001" to 0.002",Distance between outer rotor and inner rotor less than 0.007".Distance between outer rotor and body to be less than 0.007" I assume you fitted a new pump?

Lastly how accurate is your oil pressure gauge?

 

Bruce.

[RogerH]

Hi Bruce,

I didn't lap the release valve as it had been in there for ages and appeared to be working OK.

Regards the pump -

the rotor to barrel was about 0.007"

The barrel to body was a little less.

 

However what I did notice was that one end of the barrel (the thing pushed around by the rotor) had a raise ring very close to the OD of apprx 0.005"

Rightly or wrongly I removed this ring.

This then meant that the body was too long by 0.005" so I laboriously rubbed this down.

 

So all the gaps are within tolerance.

 

When I get back from the hols I will buy a new pump and investigate its dimension and see what I can conjour up.

 

The oil gauge accuracy is what it is. I'm trying to understand the variation not the absolute value.

 

Roger

[astontr6]

Hi Roger!

 

Your last point: oil pressure variation at low revs to 1750RPM then its suddenly at 65/70psi. I have never been able to understand this, whether this is a to do with the design of the pump and is one of features I do not know?

 

Perhaps someone out there knows the reason!

 

Bruce.

[peejay4A]

I can understand lapping the TR6 relief valve as it's flat but the TR4 one is a ball in a seat.

[astontr6]

Pete,

 

I did not know that, but that type of seat is usually re-cut and the ball is checked for pitting etc? I have assumed that the seat is in cast iron! If in ally the ball is often hit to form a good seat.

 

Bruce.

[RogerH]

Hi Bruce,

I was talking about my 4A (the post got cross threaded )

The ball looks very good and as far as I could see the seat looked good also.

 

Regarding your concern about the sudden increase to a 'normal' working pressure.

It is probably due to the leak rate being constant (big-ends, rocker etc).

Below a certain rev setting the leak has the advantage. Above this level the pump wins dramatically.

 

Roger

[oldtuckunder]

 

tek note Alan OT, wot size wols in fittings are yours !!

 

M

Hi M

 

sorry only just spotted this. The hose I used Aeroquip actually has a 1/2" bore or an near as dam it (12mm) and I only used straight fittings no bends at all except one to the pre-oiler (where it doesn't really matter). However as you say the bore of the fittings is smaller especially on bends. The Straight fitting I used had a bore of 10mm, but yes I'm certain some of the bend fittings are down around the 8mm ID. However its not the pipe end fittings that have the worst restriction its the M/M fittings that go into the adaptor plates, oil filter head, oil coolers etc. I must admit I put a drill through every fitting taking them out as big as I could go whilst still leaving enough metal for them to do the job. I know the theory is that you don't have to worry about an odd fitting reducing the flow as the oil should speed up going through it, and that its longer runs that actually restrict the flow, but I was taking as few chances as possible.

 

 

 

Another thought (it must be the hot weather) if the oil temp should be about that of the coolant water (or bit hotter) 80'C+ has anybody considered

running the coolant from the rad through a matrix of pipes in the sump.

I would have thought 8mm cooper would easily fit.

Could still be thermostatically controlled but perhaps not required.

 

Just a thought !!

 

And a good one roger!

 

Having decided that one of the contributing factors behind recent engine failures was running the engine too hard before the oil was up to temp, I fitted an oil temp gauge and was horrified to find out that whilst the engine was up to temp 85C in about 5 mins, by that time the oil was only tepid way below the minimum the gauge would show, and that in fact it took 20 mins plus on tickover to get above 40C, and even if you were driving it could take dozens of miles to get it anywhere near working temp, in fact most of the time it never gets above 70C (and I dont have an oil cooler). To get it into working properly temp 80C+ you have to be working the engine fairly hard.

 

I pondered what you suggested about modding the sump until Nick suggested that loads of modern cars have oil/water heat exchangers fitted for exactly this reason. You can buy one for about £30, and if you have either a remote filter head or the space where the existing filter screws on, with an extended filter pipe you can just plumb it in.

 

Works a treat oil heats up in half the time and gets up to working temp, also has the advantage that it also cools the oil if it starts going above water temp, 2 birds for the price of one!

 

Here is the one fitted to the Vitesse.

 

Alan

 

[Peter Cobbold]

Alan, From your measurements I reckon the thermostat will hardly ever open ! I shall ditch the cooler. Peter

[oldtuckunder]

Alan, From your measurements I reckon the thermostat will hardly ever open ! I shall ditch the cooler. Peter

 

Unless you are doing a lot of hard driving on hot days, or competition usage I suspect you are correct.

 

The most useful thing I fitted on this rebuild was the oil temp gauge, £13 on ebay including the sendor, and there is a neat unused port on the 6 block just above the PRV you can go straight into with an adaptor. Even if you fit one and just have it on the floor it will tell you an awful lot about whats happening in the engine for different driving patterns, after which you could just unhook the wires and put it back in the box leaving the sendor in place. I have fitted my gauge and the car doesn't move until it registers 41C (well maybe in/out of workshop) but #5BE and I have history that we are trying to escape from .

 

Makes you view what oil you are using and what you are asking it to do when, in a completely different light!

 

Alan

[Peter Cobbold]

Alan, The dash is filling with gauges....AFR, boost, vacuum, EGT, manifold temp...the more the merrier. Peter

[GT6M]

Is it owt like this Peter,

if it aint, ye no got enough gauges on there yet

 

M

[oldtuckunder]

Is it owt like this Peter,

if it aint, ye no got enough gauges on there yet

 

 

 

Couldn't spot any idiot warning lights though, Oh maybe I can

[Marc R]

Is it owt like this Peter,

if it aint, ye no got enough gauges on there yet

 

M71e05f8a8ee18f2006afcaf43e76733c.jpg

Excellent, I like it...

[Peter Cobbold]

Is it owt like this Peter,

if it aint, ye no got enough gauges on there yet

 

M71e05f8a8ee18f2006afcaf43e76733c.jpg

Markus, Makes a change from burr walnut... Peter