Windscreen Surround Rust repairable?

[Britishbest]

Hey Guys,

 

Second opinions please. Removed surround to fit new dashboard and minor spraying.

 

This is what greeted me, I half expected it.

 

I've searched some other threads but no pictures on those, I can do the welding on this myself

but would appreciate others opinions. Is this pretty typical or much worse than others?

 

The outer metal is ok its mostly the inner section.

 

Has anyone else done this repair, did you keep the shape ok with the heat from welding?

 

A new (refurbished) one is £365 so prefer to do myself.

 

On a separate note holding it in my hands without glass in has convinced me to go for a roll over bar,

lighter than a bad of crisps!

 

Thanks

 

Colt

[RogerH]

Hi Colt,

that is quite bad but I've seen worse.

Before welding get it paint stripped and soak in a derusting bath for a day or two.

Give the two stanchions a good wiggle to make sure they are firmly connected.

They are not solid. The lower section is fitted onto the upper tube section. They have been know to be in two halves due to rust.

 

Roger

[Geko]

Colt, you have a PM

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Colt,

 

" On a separate note holding it in my hands without glass in has convinced me to go for a roll over bar, lighter than a bad of crisps! "

 

Yes exactly, in a rollover the screen is about as much use as a bag of crisps, folds flat, and the doors jam . . . . and what's left of you is stuck inside whilst the fuel tank empties around you.

 

Then it all burns.

 

Thankfully, the screams don't last for long, but the sound carries a clear mile.

 

Those in range don't forget the sound. Ever.

 

A roll over bar is a damn good investment. Mount it well, bolted and welded.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Stevecross]

Colt

 

In my opinion I would say that is too far gone to repair properly unless you have fairly accomplished metal forming skills.

Although your pics show the inner as rusted the outer skin is looking so thin as to be cosmetic only so you either replace that as well or reinforce with steel tube or suchlike.

Yes it is do able but I think you would be better off sourcing a good used item as there is really a lot of work to do

Can't see where you are located but I am sure you find a better used item especially if you are in the USA.

If you have to do too much work and get it wrong then you will run the risk of cracking the screen after it is fitted.

I actually sold one about 3 years ago for not a lot of money but obviously that is no help now but if you can hold off for a while search for a replacement. There are a number of suppliers of used TR bits that would be able to help I am sure.

Steve

[Tonyloz]

Hi Colt,

 

" On a separate note holding it in my hands without glass in has convinced me to go for a roll over bar, lighter than a bad of crisps! "

 

Yes exactly, in a rollover the screen is about as much use as a bag of crisps, folds flat, and the doors jam . . . . and what's left of you is stuck inside whilst the fuel tank empties around you.

 

Then it all burns.

 

Thankfully, the screams don't last for long, but the sound carries a clear mile.

 

Those in range don't forget the sound. Ever.

 

A roll over bar is a damn good investment. Mount it well, bolted and welded.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Tonyloz]

So where do you source a roll over bar?

As you say it needs to be welded into the structure not one of the bolt in types

 

Tony

[Britishbest]

Good feedback thanks guys. On reflection and after an offer of a good used one I think I will replace.

 

Why do they rust in that spot? The bulkhead underneath was solid.

 

Alec food for thought, scary possibility but all to possible.

 

Rollover bars - Tony I know some others disagree but my view is that the bolt in ones with diagonal brace properly plated underneath on a solid floor are sufficient to help greatly in most roll and side impact incidents at lower speeds. Welding them also as Alec says seems sensible.

Main players seem to be Revington and Safety devices. Both do versions that bolt/weld to the chassis BUT usually this type wont let you erect the soft top so no good for me and many others.

I was concerned your head is too close to the type that go on the rear shelf but I've been told that's not the case. I'm looking for one now to fit sooner rather than later. Colt

[AlanT]

I repaired one that was about the same as this. Definitely not too far gone.

BUT making the repair piece by hand will be hard if you are not used to this kind of work.

 

Agree with Roger about the tubes and the de-rusting.

 

Cut back to really good metal. Don't pinch on this or you will be welding up holes.

 

Make a pattern using a cereal packet. Actually make several patterns until you get it just right.

 

Then knock in the profile. You'll need a ball-headed punch, a V-guide and an anvil. Or at least that's my method.

 

Leave it a bit long and work it down after welding to suit the profile of the deck.

[Tom Fremont]

A friend of mine rolled a TR250 in the '70s and the windscreen saved his life. His arm got scraped up but no permanent damage. He was certainly lucky, but he insists the windscreen frame played a role.

 

From memory, the Hon. GR wrote that the Surrey backlight frame offered rollover protection too. " Some " is surely an apt qualifier to use here, but I confess I consider its presence in mine to make them more safe.

 

As for the rust, anything can be repaired if a pattern or copy is available. I believe rust-free ones are cheaply had though.

 

Cheers,

Tom

[Geko]

From memory, the Hon. GR wrote that the Surrey backlight frame offered rollover protection too. " Some " is surely an apt qualifier to use here, but I confess I consider its presence in mine to make them more safe.

 

 

Even Wikipedia say so...

Styling and coachwork

The new TR4 body style did away with the classical cutaway door design of the previous TRs to allow for wind-down (roll-up) windows (...) Advanced features included the use of adjustable fascia ventilation, and the option of a unique hard top that consisted of a fixed glass rear window (called a backlight) with an integral rollbar and a detachable, steel centre panel (aluminium for the first 500 units).

[Motorsport Mickey]

Just confirmed what I thought of Wickipedia !

 

I don't believe the windscreen frame OR the rear backlight offers any rollover protection other than the very minimum than that offered by having nothing erected at all.

Even discussing such a likelihood is dangerous and capable of giving mistaken confidence in walking away from a car suffering a roll over. It's been discussed previously ad infinitum and owners will make their own decisions.

 

Mick Richards

[stillp]

Why do they rust in that spot? The bulkhead underneath was solid.

 

 

Water gets in via the holes in the top rail, or from condensation. It then has nowhere to go, until the rust has made a drain hole.

 

Pete

[RogerH]

Apart from rain/water getting in through the holes on the capping but it also goes up th screen and then under the capping.

This should be sealed but!!!!!!

 

Once in there is nowhere for the water to go

 

Condensation/atmospheric moisture - is a very real possibility - it helped kill the Concorde.

 

Roger

[Red 6]

My friend has a rust free screen at the back of his garage if you need one.

 

The screen frame and it perceived use as protection in the case of a roll over has always been a personal bugbear ever since I saw a TR6 flop over at low speed just by nicking a curb, nasty....very nasty.

 

If keeping the car a full cage with side impact bars is a worthwhile improvement. I had one in my tr6 racing car and it was unobtrusive and easy to live with.

 

The rear only roll bars, if they are still sold are probably useless. What is needed is a post by a few people who have survived a roll over with one fitted or pictures of the aftermath. To date I know of no one who has ever had the need to depend on the integrity of the bar in a roll over situation.

 

Probably proves classic car owners are a bit more careful?

[Motorsport Mickey]

"To date I know of no one who has ever had the need to depend on the integrity of the bar in a roll over situation."

 

Try asking Mike "No Brain" O 'Brien (TR4) (are you still out there Mike ?) or Frank Richardson TR3a who received an offer of advertising on the underneath of his floor panels or even John Welburn going back a few years (Alec Pringle will add a few more). Non of them had full race cages but only the single braced rear hoops and all walked away from their rolls ( Mikes was a multiple roll I believe).

As long as your TR has a braced roll hoop which has it's feet well spread on plates (even better onto the chassis (non of the above were) and the shell is in good order (almost certainly is in a restored car rather than a hastily put together racer) the braced rear roll bar will do an ok job.

 

"The rear only roll bars, if they are still sold are probably useless" well there's three people above who would argue with you about that.

Not only will the roll bar help in a roll over but also help resist side intrusion if hit by something heavy in the side in a TR (that's killed a few more), and of course we also are blessed with the comedy rear of cockpit fibre board which doesn't stand a chance of keeping fuel out of the cockpit in the event of a side impact/rear impact/roll over which lozenges the rear frame and ruptures the fuel tank. The point about this is we all may think it's a waste of time to put an alloy rear of cockpit fire screen in place (it only costs about £60ish), but the RAC Motorsport organisation DOESN'T, and they see plenty of damaged race cars and legislate against anybody competing in cars without them or integral cockpit protection. I'm buqqered if I'm going to be less safe on the public roads.

 

Mick Richards

Edited February 19, 2016 by Motorsport Mickey

[Britishbest]

Well said Mick all very valid points. Rear bulkhead ali panel will be going in mine soon.

[Tom Fremont]

Relative to our daily drivers TRs are death traps unless fitted out with proper roll cages. Most of us are quite conscious of this and drive more carefully and defensively as a result.

 

Then there are motorcycles...

 

 

Cheers,

Tom

[Red 6]

Yes to the alloy fire break as well. Mine had one.

[Alec Pringle]

" The rear only roll bars, if they are still sold are probably useless. "

 

One of the least well informed comments I've heard for quite a while.

 

And, in my view and experience, utter twaddle.

 

The first instance I saw of a TR rear rollover bar doing its job was at a hillclimb in 1969. I was so impressed I went out and bought one.

 

Over the years I've inspected the result of severe impact and the influence of the rollover bar in more than a dozen instances, either seen the accident at first hand or inspected the evidence in the immediate aftermath. I refer here both to cars which have rolled and to cars which have been side impacted.

 

At least half of those incidents would, in my considered opinion, have probably resulted in at least one fatality but for the presence of the rollover bar . . . . . all of those incidents would have resulted in, at the very least, significantly greater injury to the vehicle occupants than they actually suffered.

 

I have also seen the result of both roll and side impact accidents involving TRs not equipped with rollover bars of any sort, accidents which resulted in occupant fatality - occupants who probably would not have been fatally injured if the car had been fitted with a braced rollover bar. That's not just my own opinion, but also one expressed by emergency services attending.

 

One peculiarly difficult and unpleasant task is that of being called as an 'expert witness' to help explain the circumstances of a fatal occurrence, and then having to explain the relatively simple provision by which said fatality might have been avoided.

 

Undoubtedly a full roll cage is enormously safer and more protective in an accident situation that a simple rear bar, but whether one wishes to drive round in a steel cage outside of a motor sport competition is an open question - personally I wouldn't, but I would commend the rear bar assuming it is adequately braced and mounted.

 

The same goes, of course, for rear firewalls - which we made compulsory in TR track events nearly 40 years ago, before they were a mandatory requirement in most forms of competition.

 

Mick mentions John Welburn's infamous and singularly dramatic rollover at Goodwood . . . . . from which John very fortunately walked (or at least limped!) away. I had a blazing row with John a couple of weekends prior to that event, when I insisted that he would not be permitted to run without a roll bar. End of.

 

He did fit one of course, and had ceased cursing my intransigent attitude by the time he returned to the paddock after his aerobatic demonstration.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

Edited February 19, 2016 by Alec Pringle

[AndrewMAshton]

You have convinced me!, next job on the list, cheers, Andrew

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

one of the things that puts me off a roll over bar in the surrey topped car is that it reduces the luggage space/access on the rear seat.

The uprights are not the problem but the thickness/diameter of the top rail.

 

Are the RB's with a thin top rail.

 

I like the idea on my Saab. In the event of rolling over the RB's raise out of the backs of the rear seat.

I don't know if they pop out when the car tyres leaves the tarmac or if upside down they come out and jack the up.

 

Roger

[Motorsport Mickey]

Yes Roger, the roll over bars do reduce the storage in the rear of a TR with a Surrey rear backlight.

 

I'm fitting a Surrey to my car as it gets rebuilt and I'm aware of it, however it's a matter of choosing priorities. I really can't choose an easier packing of luggage into the TR over the safety of my wife who is likely to be the passenger when the safety is needed.

 

Mick Richards

[stuart]

You could opt for the Revington version of bar with their fibre Surrey rear as the top of it blends with the top centre of the frame.http://www.revingtontr.com/shop/product_display.asp?mscssid=784JBQGCGTLK8PTJD0A79PJQ8HUBFR48&ProductID=RTR9148-2R

Stuart.