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iain

The most expensive TR so far?

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Couldn't help but ring up for some info on SHP520 currently for sale at a dealers in North Bucks.

 

SHP520 was a works development car and later a Rally car which also took part in the 1957 Mille Miglia with Nancy Mitchell driving.

 

After a chat about its history and restoration I thought I better ask the obvious.....what was the dealer looking for?

 

 

 

Wait for it......

 

 

 

 

£450,000

 

 

 

Yes that's Four hundred and Fifty thousand folding ones. :rolleyes:

 

He also has the 1956 Pat Moss MGA, yours for offers on £650,000 :o

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It'll be that price because it's done the Mille Migla. As a previous entrant it will easily be eligible again. It's probably £50k for the works TR and £400,000 for the ticket to Italy.

Some zillionaire somewhere that fancies doing it will pay a big premium just to get an eligible car - doesn't matter what it is.

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If you mean this car on the right in the picture beside OVC..... it's in my opinion the biggest scam in TR history. :ph34r:

I have seen the car at several occasions in a friends garage for maintenance, at the time it was in the Netherlands. Must say the restoration is not up to that price.

 

On the other side I would like to see the real factory history, I think is far from as exiting as it's presented. If I remember well it did not get very far in the Mille Miglia,

for the rest not much competition experience and history, beside changing owners rather often ;)

 

Please call me wrong

Edited by jean

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Cripes, even if it did turn up for the start of the MM, it is after all just a TR2. Surely competition history should be meaningful in terms of results in order to get that sort of value.

 

As nice as the modern MM probably is and I would love to do it if I had an eligible car, could afford the entry fee or had a mate who covered both bases, isn't it just a fancy road tour ?

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To answer the most expensive TR question; does anyone know what TS1LO went for? I know it has changed hands several times since Joe Richards sold it but I've never heard any price buzz. . Tom

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What we ordinary folk tend to forget, is that the world is full of the other ordinary people who don't know what budget restriction means.

 

I have mentioned before when renovating my Maserati Merak, I complained about the cost of the clutch parts I needed (Circa £2000) and told them that there was a recession on and how could they justify the price.

 

I was told that there were no recessions in the Maserati world. It certainly woke me up being on PAYE.

 

So I sold it realising that me and Maserati weren't going to make it.

 

But Jeans comments I think make us feel a little better, when he tells us some "inside Info".

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attachicon.gifMeet and Greet 2009 021.JPG

 

If you mean this car on the right in the picture beside OVC..... it's in my opinion the biggest scam in TR history. :ph34r:

I have seen the car at several occasions in a friends garage for maintenance, at the time it was in the Netherlands. Must say the restoration is not up to that price.

 

On the other side I would like to see the real factory history, I think is far from as exiting as it's presented. If I remember well it did not get very far in the Mille Miglia,

for the rest not much competition experience and history, beside changing owners rather often ;)

 

Please call me wrong

I won't call you wrong!

 

I didn't realise that it was the beige car until I saw it on this pic. It has been on display during the Dutch Triumph Days over the years, and although being presented as 'God's gift to the TR community', most people I know had a look and walked away - for the reasons Jean writes.

 

A few years ago, the car was on sale for a whopping 150K euros, I think. I even think that I wrote about it here. At that time, a few members here commented and that took the prestented car 'off the pedistal' so to speak. (Don't know if it's a proper expression, but in Dutch it is).

 

Menno

Edited by Menno van Rij 2

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Hmmmm....a joke price indeed a very large joke ....the car is as far as I know the genuine article, ie the car that Nancy Mitchell used in the 1957 MM driving for the works...how much of what i found under an appletree in Norfolk in 1996 (where it had been for 25 years) survives in the rebuild i do not know....it certainly still had the original engine when i found it but the body was an absolute wreck and the chassis rotten....I have the photographs to prove it.....if you look up your old TRactions for the later 1990's you'll find I advertised it for sale at £13000, needing full restoration, and despite its provenance, there were no takers...I could tell whoever buys it a lot about SHP 520's history, but frankly, i don't feel inclined to unless paid a whopping fee for my trouble....why should I add value to an already hugely inflated price? Answers on a postcard please !

As someone who values TRs for owners on occasions, I would put a max value on this car of about £130, 000, and that is far more than I'd pay personally, even if I had the cash....maybe I've just been around too long and have seen it all before, but then some senseless "banker" with an obscene bonus may yet come along and open his wallet, and at the end of the day, something is worth what someone(however daft) will pay for it.....Bill Piggott

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Queen Anne's axe and then some I suspect - Bill's photos of 1996 as I recall them didn't suggest there was much rescuable, certainly not if a new owner had any ambitions of competition.

 

As a car it can't be worth more that £30K tops, if that . . . . . £100K seems a pretty generous premium for the social passport significance, even to some clot with more brass than common.

 

As for the current asking - it's the kind of figure that kills the marque stone dead, does nobody any favours in the long term, ludicrous speculation for complete suckers.

 

May the fleas of a thousand camels etc.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Hi Edwin,

 

the DVLA requirements for rebuilt vehicles are a good starting point.

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

 

I can think of quite a few megabuck ex-works TRs that would not meet this test, but then we could say the same about many/most sporting marques.

 

There are far more fakes, frauds and replicas than pukka original cars ! That's without counting tribute cars.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

Edited by Alec Pringle

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Ed, that question has been debated in the courts more than once.

 

If i hadnt bent my neck racing, i would moved away from Historic Formula Ford anyway as people were churning out brand new chassis (about the only meaningul part of a single seater) and sticking the old chassis plate on; no attempts to repair and replace parts of of a modestly dinked chassis, just bin it and buy a new one.

 

The biggest issue was HSCC not willing to clamp down on it

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Agreed Edwin,

 

I can think of several instances, in various marques, where reputable historians of integrity have innocently been taken in by voluminous and carefully crafted history files, that may have borne no more than a passing resemblance to the car's actual history. Wealthy owners with the means to rewrite history, crooks in other words.

 

In other instances, given the enormous price premium involved between an ordinary and an 'ex-works' car, the owner has seen fit to persuade the historian with a healthy wadge of folding money, and in these cases both parties are crooks.

 

Unfortunately, given the values involved, those who know the truth are unlikely to shout it from the roof tops - truth may well ultimately prevail, but only at the cost of very expensive litigation.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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My car was built in a factory, it is no longer in the factory, the factory is no longer - ex-works !

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Hmmmm....a joke price indeed a very large joke ....the car is as far as I know the genuine article, ie the car that Nancy Mitchell used in the 1957 MM driving for the works...how much of what i found under an appletree in Norfolk in 1996 (where it had been for 25 years) survives in the rebuild i do not know....it certainly still had the original engine when i found it but the body was an absolute wreck and the chassis rotten....I have the photographs to prove it.....if you look up your old TRactions for the later 1990's you'll find I advertised it for sale at £13000, needing full restoration, and despite its provenance, there were no takers...I could tell whoever buys it a lot about SHP 520's history, but frankly, i don't feel inclined to unless paid a whopping fee for my trouble....why should I add value to an already hugely inflated price? Answers on a postcard please !

As someone who values TRs for owners on occasions, I would put a max value on this car of about £130, 000, and that is far more than I'd pay personally, even if I had the cash....maybe I've just been around too long and have seen it all before, but then some senseless "banker" with an obscene bonus may yet come along and open his wallet, and at the end of the day, something is worth what someone(however daft) will pay for it.....Bill Piggott

 

I find the above valuation figure of £130k an interesting co-incidence, ex-works TR3A VRW221 which graces the front of the current TRaction, was for sale near my home address in June 2011 for an asking price of £135k, The car was very tidy and full of patina - no over restoration although clearly restored at some time prior to me seeing it.

 

However, although this matches Bill's figure very closely, even with its known and photographic history VRW221 was there for some time - in other words no stampede to buy it. It wasn't as if it was in the wrong place, many vehicles there are over the £1M threshold, there clientele certainly have the wallets for the price.

 

I have a set of photo's from 2011 which show some differences on VRW221 from then as compared to today, PM me should like a set.

 

This still dosen't tell us what an ex-works car IS worth of course but it does suggest that at £130k+, however good and genuine, a works TR is a tough sale.

 

Bob

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OldBob

 

your message box appears to be full.

 

Iain

Edited by iain

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,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,There are far more fakes, frauds and replicas than pukka original cars ! That's without counting tribute cars.

 

 

I had a very interesting 2 hour conversation with David Burroughs (creator and ex-CEO of Bloomington Gold) on other matters last Monday. We spoke briefly on proving the provenance and the claims of some owners/sellers of original cars. David also created 'Prove It', maybe he needs a branch over here: https://tsdrapi.uspto.gov/ts/cd/casedocs/bundle.pdf?sn=85665548&type=SPE&fromdate=2012-06-29&todate=2012-06-29

 

Just a thought...........

 

Cheers

Andrew

Edited by Andrew Smith

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Alec,

 

you raise an interesting point w.r.t the DVLA rebuild guidelines which enable an individual to retain the original vehicle registration

 

These are as below.

 

The vehicle must comprise of

 

· the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)

· a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)

You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists. For cars or light vans:

 

· suspension (front and back)

· steering assembly

· axles (both)

· transmission

· engine

 

 

Surely this is very easy to comply with or am I missing something?

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Its all very well having a set of rebuild guidelines but there is no requirement in place to have this checked (or none that I can find). If you have the remains of a vehicle and a V5 or V5C you can complete the rebuild and get it taxed without any checks.

 

Even if there was a check there is no way of proving the first four of those five major components are original (as opposed to original type) as there are no records of them.

 

There must be many vehicles out there including some works cars which do not conform to the guidelines. Indeed there is one well known prominent car which does not have a single item from either list.

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There must be many vehicles out there including some works cars which do not conform to the guidelines. Indeed there is one well known prominent car which does not have a single item from either list.

Yes thats true. :o

Stuart.

 

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..................There must be many vehicles out there including some works cars which do not conform to the guidelines. Indeed there is one well known prominent car which does not have a single item from either list.

I wonder if the owner knows this or has been the victim of a scam - if he/she doesn't know then maybe he/she and the Police should be informed?

 

Cheers

Andrew

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One might imagine that a priority of the TR Register, more or less from its inception, would have been to sort the wheat from the chaff . . . . to identify and acknowledge those cars which are relatively authentic and/or original, and to distinguish them from the cars that are confections of one sort or another.

 

If that nettle had been grasped back in the 70s, even the 80s, we would have a much better idea of what is and isn't authentic today.

 

Unfortunately it wasn't, quite the opposite in my view . . . . too many TR characters involved in shenanigans of one sort or another, whether for reasons of financial gain or ego tripping.

 

There are now precious few TRs, in absolute or percentage terms, worthy of any claims to originality . . . . . and even less of those cars which one might regard as distinctive by virtue of their origins and early history. I could count on the fingers of one hand the distinctive cars for which I'd pay a serious premium for authenticity and originality.

 

At least we aren't short of fakes, frauds and replicas posing as the real McCoy, and sadly I can't think of when the TR Register last 'outed' one of the mountebank recreationists and their dubious offerings - perhaps we never have ?

 

We may have preserved the marque, but we have failed dismally in terms of its rolling history.

 

Meanwhile, I'm sure that the Police have better things to do than to worry about fools parted from their money in respect of ex-works moneypits . . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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