Cew Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 I have just read on the BBC local teletext that a Peterborough hospital has been awarded a grant of £3.75 million to change 15750 "ordinary" light bulbs to LED bulbs ( I presume they are fluorescent), that equates to £238 per bulb and I guess includes someone to actually do it. I changed my 10 garage 1500mm fluorescents recently for less then £100 and it took me about forty minutes most of which was repositioning the step ladder. Presumably more work then I encountered would be needed i.e. if the lamps are inside a ceiling, but it still seems a little excessive. I calculated that at thirty minutes per bulb it should take ten operatives about twenty days to complete the task, so four weeks work at, lets say £500 pw, that's about £20000 in labour. I'm probably totally wrong and have too much time on my hands or do the powers that be not have calculators?. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 Hi Clive, you just don't understand It is called ripping off the system Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 3 hours ago, Cew said: I'm probably totally wrong and have too much time on my hands or do the powers that be not have calculators? It is probable that a large part of the cost is not merely changing bulbs but the whole light fitting. A PFI contract will probably charge the earth for that sort of thing. One hopes they have done a cost/benefit analysis as you can buy an awful lot of electricity for that sort of money. Edited February 13 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PodOne Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 All the lighting in my hospital has been replaced with LED involving the complete replacement of the whole units not just the bulbs which would have being the greener option! Not to worry I have enough tubes now to last a thousand years! PFI's an absolute rip off of public money I wish I had my pension invested in them! Here's a good example £3000 to instal a 13amp surface mounted double socket next door to an existing one and £400/year maintenance fee - come on you are kidding me - but know they were for real. I'd have done it for £20! They should all be taken back into public ownership with no compensation they have had their pound of flesh and more. Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cew Posted February 14 Author Report Share Posted February 14 I did wonder if the whole fitting would be changed but the article only stated "replacement bulbs". I misread my own calculators decimal point and it should have been 40 weeks and £200,000 in labour, presuming 40hour weeks are still worked in this country. As to maintenance contracts, some years ago my son worked for an electrician near Wisbech,Cambs. with the contract for Blockbuster video stores (remember them!) and two of them once had to drive in an Escort van to Somerset to change a single fluorescent tube in a store, madness, . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Morrison Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 We used to own a propper chippy. It was in a terrace of eight shops, each with a single story flat above. It had a continuous gutter running end to end, and another at the back. In the early eighties two men would come with a ladder and a bucket, one would support the ladder whilst the other went up with the bucket, and wearing gloves and cleaned out the debris from the gutter, they weren't fast and it took them all day to complete the job. Move along thirty years and two wagons arrive say six guys, take at least a day to erect scaffolding the length of the row, front and rear, plywood protection over the plate glass windows and plywood porches leading to the shop doorways, Scaffolding was probobly up three weeks in total, to get the same job done. So 1980's cost two men x one day, a ladder and a bucket, (Call them new say £150) total for the job + tops £350! 2010 six guys x two, plus the scaffold, lets say the same two guys to clean the gutters, total for the job, at a guess £20K ? Can't see this is progress, but it might be why our Council Tax is what it is, or why they can't fill in potholes, or change street lamp bulbs or, or or ? Signed grumpy old man, and proud of it. John. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 The reason for all that palaver is insurance and lawyers. The HASAW act calls for "suitable and sufficient" safety measures and Risk Assessment but does not dictate what those are. Public liability Insurance and potential litigation dictate that things are taken to the extreme. No-one is considered to have any responsibility for their own actions so 'engineered' controls are mandated to ensure they have no opportunity to err. To do otherwise means an insurance company would refuse payment in the event of accident or injury, and the no-win-no-fee lawyers are out there waiting for the slightest opportunity to sue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 On 2/14/2024 at 9:55 AM, RobH said: The reason for all that palaver is insurance and lawyers. The HASAW act calls for "suitable and sufficient" safety measures and Risk Assessment but does not dictate what those are. Public liability Insurance and potential litigation dictate that things are taken to the extreme. No-one is considered to have any responsibility for their own actions so 'engineered' controls are mandated to ensure they have no opportunity to err. To do otherwise means an insurance company would refuse payment in the event of accident or injury, and the no-win-no-fee lawyers are out there waiting for the slightest opportunity to sue. Rob, its not about the "Suitable and sufficient' the HASAW "Working at Height' legislation virtually bans working from ladders for jobs like that. I used to be involved in maintenance work and can remember when the act came in (early 2000s?), we had to change all our working practices to avoid falling foul of the legislation. Fortunately we were on a single site and could use cherry pickers for things like gutter cleaning. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Morrison Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 8 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said: Rob, its not about the "Suitable and sufficient' the HASAW "Working at Height' legislation virtually bans working from ladders for jobs like that. I used to be involved in maintenance work and can remember when the act came in (early 2000s?), we had to change all our working practices to avoid falling foul of the legislation. Fortunately we were on a single site and could use cherry pickers for things like gutter cleaning. Rgds Ian Exactly, what would a cherry picker and operative cost a day, compared to 100 Mts. plus of two storey scaffolding? John. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 3 minutes ago, John Morrison said: Exactly, what would a cherry picker and operative cost a day, compared to 100 Mts. plus of two storey scaffolding? John. Almost certainly a lot less John. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 To quote the HSE itself Ian: "There is a common misconception that ladders and stepladders are banned, but this is not the case. There are many situations where a ladder is the most suitable equipment for working at height." https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf As I said, the onus is left on the employer to ensure the measures used are properly assessed and the penalties are harsh should someone come to harm because the wrong conclusion was made. It would be a brave (or foolish) employer who didn't go a bit over-the-top with safety measures, but that does little to help the customer who has to pay for it. In this case the use of permanent scaffolding is obviously way over the top for such a trivial task and the customer should have looked for an alternative contractor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 On 2/13/2024 at 4:22 PM, Cew said: I have just read on the BBC local teletext that a Peterborough hospital has been awarded a grant of £3.75 million to change 15750 "ordinary" light bulbs to LED bulbs ( I presume they are fluorescent), that equates to £238 per bulb and I guess includes someone to actually do it. I changed my 10 garage 1500mm fluorescents recently for less then £100 and it took me about forty minutes most of which was repositioning the step ladder. Presumably more work then I encountered would be needed i.e. if the lamps are inside a ceiling, but it still seems a little excessive. I calculated that at thirty minutes per bulb it should take ten operatives about twenty days to complete the task, so four weeks work at, lets say £500 pw, that's about £20000 in labour. I'm probably totally wrong and have too much time on my hands or do the powers that be not have calculators?. £500pw……in your dreams :-). They wouldn’t get out of bed for that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cew Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, iain said: £500pw……in your dreams :-). They wouldn’t get out of bed for that. Only an arbitrary figure, even at a £1000pw that would account for £400,000 labour and if the complete light fittings are £100 each that would still be less than £2million of NHS funding so who gets the extra £1.75million? Surely no one is milking the system! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 Totally safe.......! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 Rob - don't these apartment blocks have stairs ? And where's the next ladder ? Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 So how many actors does it take to change a light bulb? Only one but 50 others will stand around muttering “it should have been me up there” Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve-B Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 (edited) We used to have a uni student who came around with his bucket, tools + ladder and charged us ~£10 to do our windows. Nice lad, cash in hand working his way through school and not interested in gaming the system, happy to do hard graft for some money. He was working on his Masters degree and had been doing this for more than 9 years safely, with loads of local supporters and nary a single incident. Then,, a Council jobsworth tw4t spotted him cleaning windows 1 stories up, reported him to HSE, called out many Council goons. Poor lad packed it in when they demanded he spend better part of £2K in ladder education courses, unsafe working practices threats of fines, etc. so the lad sadly packed it in. What really galls us is the Council wasted thousands pursuing someone who could’ve sucked off the government teat didn’t! Edited March 3 by Steve-B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 Oh well - I am just about to get the extending ladder out to go up on the roof and fix a leak. 15 minute job. For those with a nervous disposition here is Fred Dibnah showing how to climb a chimney. Don't suppose he got many Elf n Safety bods up there to tell him what he should be doing! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R3-YwDZrzg Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 I was Sh*****g myself just watching that !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 37 minutes ago, Lebro said: I was Sh*****g myself just watching that !! Definitely half a crown thrupenny bit time! Stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 It made me wonder how he actually got those ladders up there in the first place - particularly the ones at the overhangs as they must need attaching at the top somehow before you can actually use them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 Doesn't bear thinking about Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cew Posted March 3 Author Report Share Posted March 3 I've no idea what he was carrying in the pack but I would have wanted it to be a parachute! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 That reminds me - I must clear the gutters of moss. Luckily I live in a bungalow ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 Just in case anyone was wondering I am back off the roof now. Nice sunny day and no wind to speak of. I was only 20 feet or so off the ground. Here is Fred Dibnah erecting a chimney scaffold at 200 feet above the ground. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3ma9iYx4rg Somewhere I remember finding a video of him putting up the ladders to get over an overhang. As a teenager I once worked as a scaffolder and that scared me to death at times especially when it was wet and windy. No safety ropes but just a hard hat so I would be ok if I fell off head first. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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