Spit_2.5PI Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 This reminds me that I bought some yellow 101 celluloid film which was nearly 100% cut for blue and something like 10% for green and red. I bought it to filter the living room lights to see if filtering out the blue would help me sleep better - it didn't! I'll cut some out to make crude glasses to try next time I'm out at night and see if it reduces headlight glare. Cheers, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, Spit_2.5PI said: This reminds me that I bought some yellow 101 celluloid film which was nearly 100% cut for blue and something like 10% for green and red. I bought it to filter the living room lights to see if filtering out the blue would help me sleep better - it didn't! I'll cut some out to make crude glasses to try next time I'm out at night and see if it reduces headlight glare. Cheers, Richard Looking forward to hearing your results. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ralph Whitaker Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 Jumping in on this topic, I too find the brilliance of the light of modern oncoming traffic to be blinding. In the good old days the wattage of headlamps was limited by the construction and use regs, but what measurement factors do they use now, if any. My local car accessory shop has a sign in the window offering headlamp bulbs that give a 200% increase in brightness for safer driving at night!. Maybe for the driver of the car but not for other road users. If we have to start closing our eyes when being approached by cars with HID lights then there is clearly a safety concern, and it doesn`t have to be badly adjusted lights, as just the sheer brilliance is enough, or like on the road near me getting constantly flashed as cars go over the speed bumps. I never had any problem driving cars with Lucas 60/40 sealed beam units at night, and my rally car had only standard lights, but 2 extra long range spotlights which themselves had only 60w bulbs. Also, I have to add it is not only cars. Cyclists are now using ultra bright led front lamps with no dip facility at all. Ralph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 14 Author Report Share Posted January 14 1 hour ago, Ralph Whitaker said: Jumping in on this topic, I too find the brilliance of the light of modern oncoming traffic to be blinding. In the good old days the wattage of headlamps was limited by the construction and use regs, but what measurement factors do they use now, if any. My local car accessory shop has a sign in the window offering headlamp bulbs that give a 200% increase in brightness for safer driving at night!. Maybe for the driver of the car but not for other road users. If we have to start closing our eyes when being approached by cars with HID lights then there is clearly a safety concern, and it doesn`t have to be badly adjusted lights, as just the sheer brilliance is enough, or like on the road near me getting constantly flashed as cars go over the speed bumps. I never had any problem driving cars with Lucas 60/40 sealed beam units at night, and my rally car had only standard lights, but 2 extra long range spotlights which themselves had only 60w bulbs. Also, I have to add it is not only cars. Cyclists are now using ultra bright led front lamps with no dip facility at all. Ralph Hello Ralph and welcome to the debate. I think Rob has highlighted the problem with LED headlights giving a large peak in the 400-500nm spectrum unlike other headlight designs. Equally it would appear that yellow specs might reduce this end of the spectrum. I am waiting for the pair of yellow specs I bought that are probably diverted around Africa as I write this. I have seen clip on yellow 'sun' visors that act as anti glare visors but reviews of quality and effectiveness of these are mixed. I had though a yellow tinted aero screen might be a possibility for the TR but I think it would have to be bigger than a standard size aero screen. There are several suppliers of yellow tinted plastic but some are clear and some more opaque. There is also little data for some of these regarding light transmission and the spectrum they filter. Your comment about cyclists using LEDs is a good one. I had one of these 'cyclops' coming towards me the other night. Interesting discussion so far. We need some trials at night to see if any of these yellow plastics actually work. Any reduction of the blue end of the spectrum would be better I think. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) May I, with my retired-medical hat on, remind everyone that glare from street and car lights can be a symptom of the eye condition 'glaucoma'? This is age related, so more likely to affect the senior membership of this board, and if untreated can lead to blindness. So before you order, or while you are waiting for your yellow glasses, please make an appointment at your optician? The test is routinely done, if you wear glasses you will have had it done before. You peer into that machine that shows you a picture of a hot air balloon and it squirts a small jet of air at your eye. The consequent deformation of the eyeball is totally painless and allows the pressure to be estimated. Probably a free test too, if you are 60 or over. John Edited January 14 by john.r.davies Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bleednipple Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 I'm not a medic but just to add to what John says... I gather another cause of night dazzle is the clouding of the lens in the early stage of cataract formation. I was told that develops in a very high proportion of people from their fifties onwards and even though it doesn't often reach a clinical level, it explains why many older people complain about night driving glare. Someone I know in his early 70s, a very competent rally driver, had cataracts done last year and he says the improvement for night driving is particularly remarkable. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ralph Whitaker Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 OK, so maybe it is just an age thing. I have ordered a pair of yellow tinted driving glasses and will test them and let everyone know. I admit to being 68 years old and have never had an eye test, I do wear glasses for reading (non prescription), but otherwise my sight is fine (I think), but admit maybe I ought to have them tested. Ralph. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Morrison Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 Unwise not to have a profesional look at your eyesight Ralph. The deteriation is gradual, but you might be in trouble if ever involved in an accident, even one thats not your fault. it is also the case that these exams can pick up early signs of a number of conditions, and not just to do with the eyes. John. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bleednipple Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 John I agree, it's considered important to have an eye test every one to two years, even if your vision seems good, to give early warning of glaucoma and macular degeneration. Eye tests can also detect some other general health conditions like diabetes and high blood pressure, although I don't know how often eye tests actually play a crucial role in that (obviously, fee-earning opticians might be inclined to over state that, and everyone really should be monitoring their own BP periodically anyway). Regarding 'night driving glasses', Which? says they are generally no use at all, see: https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/are-night-driving-glasses-safe-to-wear-a20Q17g8xnyD. I certainly wouldn't wear them. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 I have my eyes tested annually so I know the bright-light problem isn't medical for me. The yellow clip-on lenses I have just acquired seem completely transparent for halogen lamps and other incandescent sources - they flip up and down and doing that I can't discern any difference in normal night vision - but they certainly do dim blue christmas-lights a bit (scientific test ! ) . I haven't used them for driving yet so can't say whether they help with glare. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 2 hours ago, RobH said: I have my eyes tested annually so I know the bright-light problem isn't medical for me. The yellow clip-on lenses I have just acquired seem completely transparent for halogen lamps and other incandescent sources - they flip up and down and doing that I can't discern any difference in normal night vision - but they certainly do dim blue christmas-lights a bit (scientific test ! ) . I haven't used them for driving yet so can't say whether they help with glare. At the other end of the scale. I was told that Night vision goggles cut out the red light spectrum of led from anti collision lights on tall buildings. That makes flying your helicopter by night over a city at night wearing night vision goggles probably a dangerous game. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 (edited) Hardly a scientific test, Rob. The glasses (they are not lenses, else they would refract light, bend it and put your eyes out of focus) are YELLOW filters, meaning they absorb blue light. There isn't much blue light from halogen lamps, not much more from incandescent, so you don't miss it. A blue Christmas light already has the non-blue filtered out. https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/350528/how-could-i-measure-the-colour-spectrum-of-a-light-bulb-and-investigate-how-clos Allegedly, 'glare' is caused by blue light, which doesn't get as well focussed in the eye. This is the rationale behind these yellow glasses, and they have been the subject of many published papers. The most relevant may be "Comparison of Pedestrian Detection With and Without Yellow-Lens Glasses During Simulated Night Driving With and Without Headlight Glare" (Hwang, Tuccar-Burak et al, 2019, JAMA Opthalmol. 1147-1153; https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaophthalmology/article-abstract/2740739) which concluded, "Yellow-lens night-driving glasses did not appear to improve pedestrian detection at night or reduce the negative associations between HLG and pedestrian detection performance. This negative association of HLG was greater for older participants. " Waste of money, better spent on an eye test! But the eye test is free, so save it for your TR! John Edited January 15 by john.r.davies Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 (edited) Zoooooom! " scientific test !' was a joke John. I think everyone is aware the yellow bits are filters - that is exactly what is under discussion and similar spectra have already been shown in previous posts. Also I would point out that halogen lamps are incandescent, though burning at a higher temperature than those without a halogen fill, which raises the colour temperature and makes the light 'whiter'. The halogen gas is there to make the tungsten molecules settle back on the filament and not on the glass, it doesn't of itself affect light colour. Glare may be due to focussing effects as you say "allegedly" but there is also the photopupillary reflex. I understand the pupil contracts in response to overall luminance but it seems the spectral sensitivity of that is complex, at least in the mesopic range: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0253030 Blue light has more energy (energy increases with frequency) so is it possible it dominates - so that bright blue light results in longer 'night blindness' after exposure ? I can't access the 'jamaophalmology' paper you referenced - it is the same one referred to in the Which report that Nigel posted. They state it was a small scale study of a simulated laboratory trial. In any case I believe in 'suck-it-and-see". My preliminary observation is that the tint is no detriment to normal night vision so at least they don't make things worse. When I have tried night driving I will report back on whether they help or not. I shall refrain from using them when flying my aeroplane ( another joke). Edited January 15 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spit_2.5PI Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 I made some night driving glasses by removing the lenses from some safety glasses, leaving just "eyebrows", nose bridge & arms. I cut an approx. 1 1/2" strip of 101 yellow filter "gel" (they don't call it celluloid) I mentioned above and blu-tak'ed it to the front of the safety glasses "eyebrows". It gave a pleasing amber tint to the world and made many of the blue LEDs around the house much much dimmer. Driving over to friends in the evening, under street lights it made no discernible difference other than the amber-tinted view. Out in the countryside away from street lights it also made virtually no difference. Was there a slight reduction in glare? Were LED headlights a little less bright? If there was it was so slight as to be hardly noticeable. So, I think they make the world a relaxing amber tone, but they don't noticeably reduce glare. I'll try these again on a motorway sometime. Cheers, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 3 hours ago, RobH said: The halogen gas is there to make the tungsten molecules settle back on the filament and not on the glass, it doesn't of itself affect light colour. In any case I believe in 'suck-it-and-see". My preliminary observation is that the tint is no detriment to normal night vision so at least they don't make things worse. When I have tried night driving I will report back on whether they help or not. I shall refrain from using them when flying my aeroplane ( another joke). I refer my Honourable Friend to my previous reply, and to the spectra there displayed. There is a lot more yellow light from the halogen lamp. The PLOS paper did indeed use over 80 subjects, but was exclusively concerned with the pupillary reflex, and was even more divorced from the driving experience which the JAMA paper did with a driving simulator. Moreover, Zauner et al made no attempt at determining observation or awareness. I don't understand why you quoted their work, unless it was to refer to twilight, mesopic, illumination, nor why you were unable to follow the link to Hwang et al. IF this academic discussion puts people off, please have a look at the Which? report! Are night driving glasses safe to wear? - Which? News Meanwhile the other cause of glare is, of course, dirty or scratched glasses! Please clean yours thoroughly, and not as I usuelay do, one dirty handkerchief! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 OK - I've just got back from a trial run and the verdict is ........they do help a bit. I agree with Richard that they don't make much difference under street lights, except that the nasty white LED ones are less annoying but they do also tone down those sharp blue-ish headlights without noticeably reducing illumination from your own, though you don't really need that so much with street lamps anyway. Perhaps if I had LED lights myself, that would not be the case I included runs on straight, unlit roads with a stream of traffic coming the other way and here the difference is more marked - not huge but noticeable. As the ones I have can be flipped up, the with/without test is easy. Here I found they really did tone down the worst of the super-bright lights and I think that helped with my vision in †he dark patch in front of me. Again, the reach of my own lights was not reduced. The down side is that I now have four air/glass (plastic?) interfaces to keep clean and smear-free. The test has overcome my natural scepticism. I shall continue to use them as I think they will make for a more relaxed experience on a long night drive, but where there is no oncoming traffic I shall flip them up to minimise the 'smear' issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 15 Author Report Share Posted January 15 For years we all drove under the yellow sodium street lights which were much better for foggy conditions. We also had yellow fog lights on cars that reduced the reflected glare compared to tungsten car headlamps. I don't recollect having any issues in those days with glare from oncoming car headlights. The comments regarding eye tests are valid but does not explain why so many drivers, including younger drivers, are reporting headlight glare being a problem. We cannot all have glaucoma or cataracts. The sample size of the scientific investigations are small and they quote science carried out long before the introduction of LED headlights. There needs to be a much bigger modern study. John Davies showed a graph of warm and cold LED that showed the difference in the blue light peak. In our kitchen we have cold LED and warm halogen lights. The warm light is much more comfortable on the eyes but the cold light is better for visibility. I am waiting for the yellow specs I ordered and will do a suck it and see trial once they come. I don't know why night driving and glare has become such a problem in recent years but I suspect LED are to blame. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, john.r.davies said: I refer my Honourable Friend to my previous reply, and to the spectra there displayed. There is a lot more yellow light from the halogen lamp. You are assuming that all Halogen lamps are equal. They are not. Yes there is a lot more yellow light but there must also be a lot more blue light. It is inherent in halogen lamps that they burn hotter than normal incandescents - that is the whole point. Physics dictates that it also means the colour temperature is shifted towards the blue end of the spectrum so they cannot generate less blue light. We do not know what type of lamp that spectrum was measured on. It is possible it was the type of dichroic halogen lamp commonly used in houses. Most of those include a UV filter which quite likely also attenuates the blue end of the lamp spectrum. I do not know whether car headlamp bulbs have such a filter. Edited January 15 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 Thanks, Rob! Interesting conversation! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 Is this why the French had yellow headlights ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 No, it was under the Nazis, as an anti-Resistance measure The French were compelled to colour their headlights, so they could be distinguished from occupiers' vehicles at night. Strangely, the measure remained in force until the 1990s. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 This would have it differently. It was apparently enacted in the late 1930s so pre-dated German occupation by a number of years. "By the mid-1930s, automotive headlamp performance had stabilized and advanced to the point that French legislators were moved to create a law that favored oncoming traffic over the vehicle operator. According to some sources, this decree was made in early November 1936, and it made yellow headlamps mandatory on new cars beginning April 1937; all roadgoing vehicles would need to be retrofitted with the new lighting by January 1939." https://www.hemmings.com/stories/french-cars-yellow-headlights/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 (edited) Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between, like a well known sleeve of sea water? Petit rappel historique : les phares jaunes ont été rendus obligatoires en 1936. À cette époque, les tensions entre la France et l'Allemagne étant exacerbées, le gouvernement français instaure les phares jaunes sur les véhicules civils et militaires, afin de mieux identifier l'ennemi en cas d'invasion. (https://entretien-voiture.pagesjaunes.fr/astuce/voir/520207/phares-jaunes#:~:text=Petit rappel historique %3A les phares,ennemi en cas d'invasion.) A little historical reminder: yellow headlights were made compulsory in 1936. At that time, tensions between France and Germany were heightened, the French government installed yellow headlights on civil and military vehicles, in order to better identify the enemy in the event of invasion. Sad to say, a brilliant idea, except for one little prob⁹lem..... John Edited January 16 by john.r.davies Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 17 Author Report Share Posted January 17 Well my yellow specs arrived today. They came by air all the way from China but the delivery driver managed to smash them forcing the package through the letterbox at the house. Just got a refund so back to the drawing board. Modern life eh. Once upon a time we could go to a real shop and buy stuff but now its all 'online' and you can always send it back or get a refund if it arrives broken. I waste lots of time in this way whilst being told this is the modern way of life which is much easier. You can order from the armchair. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard65 Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 If you cannot get them on the high street either from qualified opticians or from chemists or from shops who are not shy on missing an opportunity does it not mean they are no good? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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