Heavy clutch

[Colin Ablewhite]

Hi all .

 I suppose I am not alone in finding the clutch in my TR6 too heavy. Having just finished a 2.5 year rebuild I am finding the clutch too heavy to use for long journeys. I am starting to develop a authentic left knee and I am finding it very disappointing.

From the research I have done so far it appears I have a few options.

1 . Change the clutch for a different model.

2 Fit an auto gearbox from a Triumph 2000

3  Fit a brake servo conversion kit.

Any advise from anyone with experience would be most welcome.

 I had never heard of the brake servo option before today but looking at some solutions on the web today this came up as a good option.

Has anyone out there fitted such a system in the UK and if what do you think? The article I was reading was from the USA but it suggested it can be applied to a whole range of classic British sports cars.

Happy new year to all my fellow TR enthusiasts.

Colin  

 

 

[harrytr5]

Colin,

I fitted a servo on a mates TR4a clutch when he had severe problems with his left foot and it worked well.

I have fitted to my TR5 an  annular Tilton hydraulic clutch kit which has been in use for twenty years now. The clutch cover was a new old stock Laycock.

Cambridge motorsports make their own kit and I have fitted two which are excellent and nice bit of kit. I worked out how to test the hydraulic seals out of the gearbox before installing it all back into the gearbox and refitting it to the TR. The first install leaked and had to have the gearbox out to find out why(hence the testing before fitting the gearbox back into the TR) Made up a clutch pedal stop so not to overstroke the piston which gives you half the stroke on the pedal. Both kits give you a much lighter clutch pedal which I just love.

Regards Harry

[RogerH]

Hi Colin,

+1 for what  Harry has mentioned above.

The standard clutch can be fairly easy on the leg but it can't be guaranteed as there are many variables.

The servo is an increasingly popular upgrade (as the age level rises in the club) and easy to do with  a guaranteed outcome.

The co-axial clutch slave is also a good move but you need to be a bit more daring to go for it.

Good luck

 

Roger

Edited December 27, 2023 by RogerH

[Andy Moltu]

I doubt the servo would be needed with the coaxial clutches. They tend to be light under foot.

What clutch cover do you have fitted? if the car was reassembled with an uprated cover, they tend to be in/out and unpleasantly heavy and could be best used on a race car but awful on a road car.

[RogerH]

Hi Andy,

I think the suggestion was one or the other - Servo or co-axial.

 

Roger

[Schnippel]

Hello install this clutch!  Sachs 3082100041

I have already installed a lot of them in TR 6.

Even in the performance-enhanced TR 6 it works very well!!

Hand on it!

Best regards Ralf

 

 

[Colin Ablewhite]

Hi all.

Thanks so much for your views. There is a lot to consider.

I kind of like the idea of the servo route as my first option. Can anyone point me in the right direction as to what is involved in fitting such a beast and where I can buy one?

Colin.

[RogerH]

Buy one from the TRShop in Chiswick.

You will need to tap into the intake manifold. I think there is already a take-off with a bung in it.

Re-route the brake pipes.

 

Roger

[Colin Ablewhite]

7 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Buy one from the TRShop in Chiswick.

You will need to tap into the intake manifold. I think there is already a take-off with a bung in it.

Re-route the brake pipes.

 

Roger

Thanks Roger that is a great help. I will have a chat with them..

Colin.

 

 

[Schnippel]

Hello,

Have you ever thought about what kind of load is placed on the crankshaft axle bearings?

Why do you think these bearings fail so often?

Why were so many crankshafts and engine blocks ruined?

The core of the problem needs to be eliminated and that is the pressure plate!!

Best regards

Ralf

[Tim D.]

I have ralf's suggested pressure plate fitted to my TR6. It was a good solution to handle the torque from the supercharger which the standard clutch was failing on. I hadn't though of it as light and in fact have fitted a 0.625 Inch master which with an adjustable push rod gives what I think is a reasonably light clutch. Certainly compared to my uncles tr4a. But it is still heavier than the one in my stag for example..

Tim

[Z320]

Hi Colin,

in my opinion the problem is the poor design of the TR construction with a shaft and fork,

and the wrong combination of the hydraulik cylinders. The clutch cover is not the problem or solution.

The diaphragm clutch covers

all have about the the same size and design but a different strong spring and the need for different forces on the pedal.

Me and my mate Jochem had a closer look on the at with our concentric release bearing project, he did some quality measurements at his company.

On the photo: a B&B cover old design on a TR6 flywheel, friction plate between, RHP release bearing, bronze carrier with anti spin pin.

The maximum forces to give the friction plate free are (all tested with the RHP bearing):

- 1,000 Newton: Laycock, only used / NOS

- 1,240 Newton: B&B old design "8+8 1/2", only used or NOS

- 1,300 Newton: Sachs 3082 100 041

- 1,500 Newton: B&B new design "LC03JR003B"

- 1,840 Newton: Mazda MX5

- 2,000 Newton: Sachs 3082 100 142

Because I use a Mazda MX5 gearbox in my TR4A I gave Jochem a MX5 clutch cover to check too!

It is well known the MX5 clutch works very easy - but is one of the strongest ones, guiding me to the

Release mechanism:

The hydraulics on the MX5 works with a fork witout shaft, it only seasaws on a ball pin and has a good combination of master and slave.

When I started first with this issue 6-8 years ago (?) I noticed the pedal gives the clutch free after a very short way of travel,

much enough way of travel was "needles" and good to use a smaller master cylinder.

I changed from the original 0.75" master first to 0.70", next to 0.625", I suppose 0.050" would also work, if it would be aviabale from Girling.

On a TR6 a adjustable pushrod makes sense to push the slave piston as deep as possible in the slave cylinder.

Some other TRs run this way on my recommendation, like Tim D.'s TR6

My recommendation "for little effort" is to use the B&B new design or Sachs 100 041, a 0.625" master, RHP bearing and bronze carrier with spin stop pin.

The forces reduced down from 23 kg to about 16 kg, like on a small new car.

Concentric clutch release bearing:

I ended with this (strongly modified Sachs hydarulic from Opeel/Vauxhall Omega) on my TR4A gearbox, and later also on my MX5 gearbox.

Still with the 0.625" master a and "B&B new design" it gives a little more benefit and needs no limitation of the way of pedal travel.

But it's only the last 5-10%, only a few mates will go that way (lots of effort). If you still have any questions, please ask.

Currently I'm working an an article for our German TR IG club magazin about the issue.

Ciao, Marco

Edited February 25 by Z320

[RogerH]

Thanks Marco for a good explanation.

 

Roger

[John Morrison]

Thanks Marco as usual great information 

John

[Andy Moltu]

Do you know what clutch you have in at present?

Have you compared yours to any other TRs?

[Colin Ablewhite]

Well thank you all again for the brilliant reply’s. The piece from Marco is really interesting and great to see such high quality engineering. For my situation I was hoping not to have to remove the gearbox but deal with it using a mod to the hydraulics. 
I have no idea what kind of clutch is in there. The car was an USA import. The guy who sold it to me said he had replaced the clutch before he advertised the car but I really don’t know. It seems to work fine. I think the problem is my left knee rather than a faulty clutch.

While still on the subject does anyone have a picture of how and where a remote servo would be fitted to a TR6. Also if TR Shop don’t have them is there anyone else who supplies them.

Thanks again 

Colin

[Z320]

A 0.625“ master costs you little money and effort and is easy to fix.

And the adjustable push rod is not really needed if the clutch worked before…..

(1 - 0.625x0.625 / 0.75x0.75) = 30% less force

Edited December 28, 2023 by Z320

[stuart]

2 hours ago, Colin Ablewhite said:

Well thank you all again for the brilliant reply’s. The piece from Marco is really interesting and great to see such high quality engineering. For my situation I was hoping not to have to remove the gearbox but deal with it using a mod to the hydraulics. 
I have no idea what kind of clutch is in there. The car was an USA import. The guy who sold it to me said he had replaced the clutch before he advertised the car but I really don’t know. It seems to work fine. I think the problem is my left knee rather than a faulty clutch.

While still on the subject does anyone have a picture of how and where a remote servo would be fitted to a TR6. Also if TR Shop don’t have them is there anyone else who supplies them.

Thanks again 

Colin

Obviously fitted to a carburated car but same principles apply, customer had a problem with his left ankle. It worked well,Vacuum feed from the centre of the manifold not shown connected yet. Ive tried a car with the concentric slave fitted and I found it to not have much feel plus a very short stroke on the pedal.

Stuart.

Edited December 28, 2023 by stuart

[PodOne]

Some really great engineering solutions here and maybe I'm younger and blessed with stronger left leg but it would seem the original Laycock cover offers the lowest effort but is the hardest and most expensive to source. Set up properly after a bit of a journey! it seems to work well enough with no more effort than a MX5 with a Stage 2 FM clutch set up.

My point being would it not be worth someone remanufacturing the Laycock clutch kit, is the tooling hiding some where unused? 

Or join a gym!

Andy

[RogerH]

Interestingly, on the Moss WebCat https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/cover-clutch-85-gcc228.html?assoc=114350

it shows only the Laycock pressure plate.  Is this the same as years ago or simply a new, but different plate.

 

 

 

Roger

[michaelfinnis]

I don’t find my clutch heavy at all. No idea what clutch is fitted. Am I stronger than I thought, or have I been lucky with whatever clutch was fitted by PO? Is there a problem with clutches, or clutch hydraulics, being supplied now?

[harrytr5]

A new. Or different plate Roger.

The Laycock original Cover also fitted the Military

Bedford 3 tonners .I wonder if there is a MOD store somewhere full up with them.

How is this new cover named as Laycock

When the Company does not exist today?

Regards Harry

[RogerH]

3 minutes ago, harrytr5 said:

A new. Or different plate Roger.

The Laycock original Cover also fitted the Military

Bedford 3 tonners .I wonder if there is a MOD store somewhere full up with them.

How is this new cover named as Laycock

When the Company does not exist today?

Regards Harry

Hi Harry,

 the same cover is on EBay as a Ralcam      Confusing or what.

 

Roger

 

[harrytr5]

Branded as Raicam on the Spec.

No idea

Would stay clear.

H

[PodOne]

37 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Interestingly, on the Moss WebCat https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/cover-clutch-85-gcc228.html?assoc=114350

it shows only the Laycock pressure plate.  Is this the same as years ago or simply a new, but different plate.

 

 

 

Roger

Hi Roger

Looks completely different to what I fitted as a Laycock clutch looked like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314898315902?_ul=UK&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338353466&toolid=20006%26customid%3Ds%3AGS%3Bgc%3ACj0KCQiA1rSsBhDHARIsANB4EJaY56_1FptqyGUi8kbJ7QzSvQh84XgfT0ReC6wy4CUg2heraaq5kuYaAqSXEALw_wcB%3Bpt%3A1%3Bchoc%3A2&customid=s%3AGS%3Bgc%3ACj0KCQiA1rSsBhDHARIsANB4EJaY56_1FptqyGUi8kbJ7QzSvQh84XgfT0ReC6wy4CUg2heraaq5kuYaAqSXEALw_wcB%3Bpt%3A1%3Bchoc%3A1&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA1rSsBhDHARIsANB4EJaY56_1FptqyGUi8kbJ7QzSvQh84XgfT0ReC6wy4CUg2heraaq5kuYaAqSXEALw_wcB.

Andy