uprated cv joints

[Phil Read]

I keep hearing about safety problems and rear hubs. Is it realy a problem? How many have actually failed without notice. I ask as I have several series one Land Rovers which have semi floating rear hubs. Similar "safety issue" rumours have been raised from time to time as failure means loosing the hub, half shaft etc. In reality very few have failed in this way, usualy the bearing is noisy long before it fails. It would be interesting to know how many TR rear hubs have actally failed. I have a 4A and a 250, used to have a TR6 and the only problems I have had is UJs.

[TRTOM2498PI]

On 11/4/2023 at 8:43 PM, A Brit in Bama said:

Any of you try the Good Parts CV axles from the US? 

Especially when installed in combination with their uprated hubs, I consider this a serious safety upgrade, and so (to answer the question of the original post) worth the money.  Not to mention, the car runs smoother, and with less maintenance required (no greasing UJs etc.) 

https://www.goodparts.com/product-category/drive-train/upgraded-axle-hub-kits/

The pic shows one of the units before I installed it on my 71

 

Yes, been using these particular ones since 2009.  I have done circa 80k miles of hard driving (track days, sprints, endurance events, trips to the Alps), and hubs are still quiet.  Highly recommended !

[Waldi]

15 minutes ago, Phil Read said:

I keep hearing about safety problems and rear hubs. Is it realy a problem? How many have actually failed without notic. It would be interesting to know how many TR rear hubs have actally failed.

Hi Phil,

just read Mick’s post from yesterday (on page 1).

Waldi

[TRTOM2498PI]

45 minutes ago, lee said:

Ah. 
not sure why I ended up getting a set. I’m not a brutal driver so hopefully will be ok or at least better than std 

Hi Lee,

You will probably be OK with these.

The ones that Good Parts sell, have hubs rated for 400bhp, so you should be good when throwing the kitchen sink at them.

Cheers.

[Phil Read]

27 minutes ago, Waldi said:

Hi Phil,

just read Mick’s post from yesterday (on page 1).

Waldi

Given the number of triumphs on the road it is hardly a major issue. If you are going to thrash the car round a curcuit or you like doing wheelies fare enough, things are  bound to break. But frightening owners who drive steady and do limited mileage into replacing expensive parts is something else.

[Waldi]

Phil,
I think no one knows the exact number of failed TR IRS drive shafts, but very likely what we can read on the WWW is just a fraction of the total number of failures. 
I also think most TR’s will never suffer from a failure like this.
But the consequences can be big, also for others on the road.
I am not a racer boy, use standard tires etc, but also do not have history of my shafts and no means to periodically inspect (except for play in the hub).

This made me decide to install CV drive shafts.
And off course, I’m disappointed too that what is considered a safety upgrade has failed!

It is not my intend to frighten others, and think that applies for many of us.
This is again one in the category “each to their own”.

 

Best regards,

Waldi

 

[Motorsport Mickey]

29 minutes ago, Phil Read said:

Given the number of triumphs on the road it is hardly a major issue. If you are going to thrash the car round a curcuit or you like doing wheelies fare enough, things are  bound to break. But frightening owners who drive steady and do limited mileage into replacing expensive parts is something else.

Well the forum search box will tell you the story Phil, you can review the various posts from TR owners who have had the stub axle snap, or the hub split inside itself. You'll also finds the quote from a reconditioner there who said..."There are many reconditioners who now won’t rebuild existing hubs, a spokesman for one claimed about 20% weren’t suitable for rebuilding being fractured inside,"  if he’s correct that’s a worrying number of failing hubs in use that could suffer the ultimate fate. As I've said previously these "Innsbruk" rear suspension cars including the Triumph Stag, and the big Triumph saloons are all suffering breakages and the rate will accelerate as their "life" slowly expires. As you can see from the quote from a "company" employee now a TR owner, these failures were known to occur on the Big Triumph saloons even back in the 1970s when they were young and their mileages were approaching the 100k mark.

I don't see why you are worried, if not knowing that there are a number of failures every year with these components is your preferred state, then even though it's now been pointed out, you still have the option of carrying on as you are. However if you think that swapping to new hubs will reset the original Triumph clock then a pair of original design hubs can be bought and fitted to the standard drive shafts for pretty reasonable money (under £800 I'm told). I preferred to remove the failure possibility from my Stag and fitted new hubs and CV shafts complete, not a choice made in fright, but a choice made because in my case I believe it's a risk too far NOT to change them.

Your car, your choices.

Mick Richards

Edited November 6, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey

[DRD]

3 hours ago, Phil Read said:

I keep hearing about safety problems and rear hubs. Is it realy a problem? How many have actually failed without notice. I ask as I have several series one Land Rovers which have semi floating rear hubs. Similar "safety issue" rumours have been raised from time to time as failure means loosing the hub, half shaft etc. In reality very few have failed in this way, usualy the bearing is noisy long before it fails. It would be interesting to know how many TR rear hubs have actally failed. I have a 4A and a 250, used to have a TR6 and the only problems I have had is UJs.

I think the problem has been largely around reconditioned hubs. The process used to replace the bearing puts an undue strain on the old stub axle and causes failure not long after. I believe Moss make new hubs so that's another potential solution without having to use CV drive shafts.

[BaulyCars]

On 11/5/2023 at 4:42 PM, stuart said:

I recommend and fit these instead.https://www.racetorations.co.uk/product/fast-road-race-rear-hub-driveshaft-assembly-tr4a-6/

Stuart.

Look good - I see they also do a CV version, which appears to be lower cost?   

Will do mine I think - mostly as its hard to know the history of the hubs, might or might not have been refurbished properly or improperly, or clouted a kerb at some point in its life... 

Edited November 6, 2023 by BaulyCars

[Keith66]

On 11/5/2023 at 12:35 AM, Motorsport Mickey said:

I think this subject is done to death Keith but here's a review of some of the reports and failures

Hi all,

Good info, but it does highlight a quandary.

My car was a one owner original condition (rusty wreck) barn find prior to me getting it, with 69k on the clock which I’ve got no reason to disbelieve that as apart from the mega rot, trim and mouse issues mechanically the engine and gearbox needed minimal work, though both were stripped just in case and everything else has been stripped down and rebuilt and renewed as needed.

But the hubs seemed fine as do the splines (no clonks but my experience is minimal) but has it had new rear bearings and the hubs been split before I got it? who knows.

But of course the hubs are now over 50 years old so age??

Now I know it’s a case of its my car therefore its my decision, which is 100% correct but spending the thick end of £2k on new CV driveshafts the basis of what might happen in a small number of cases with little definitive evidence on the cause either way is kind of difficult to justify.

Clearly if bearings were on their way out I probably wouldn’t split the hub or buy reconditions ones, which I’m sure means new bearings and a repaint at best.

So the question of what to do and that leads to a couple of questions.

Are the new hubs that are available the same design as the original and thus would suffer from the same issues eventually. Though with the comments about triumph 2000’s failing at 4 or 5 years and 70k won’t really affect me (or most of us ) as 70k with represents about 20 years and I won’t be driving by then.

Are the uprated replacement hubs on that same original design or different and if they are of the original design what makes them uprated?

Similar with the whole CV driveshafts, is the hub element the same or different in its design?

If the new hubs are different what in the design makes them fail safe?

After all the differences could be fairly crucial and with the cost of for “new” hubs ranging from £330 to £895 the prices seem very different indeed.

Cheers  Keith

[Motorsport Mickey]

16 hours ago, Keith66 said:

Hi all,

Good info, but it does highlight a quandary.

My car was a one owner original condition (rusty wreck) barn find prior to me getting it, with 69k on the clock which I’ve got no reason to disbelieve that as apart from the mega rot, trim and mouse issues mechanically the engine and gearbox needed minimal work, though both were stripped just in case and everything else has been stripped down and rebuilt and renewed as needed.

But the hubs seemed fine as do the splines (no clonks but my experience is minimal) but has it had new rear bearings and the hubs been split before I got it? who knows.

But of course the hubs are now over 50 years old so age??

Now I know it’s a case of its my car therefore its my decision, which is 100% correct but spending the thick end of £2k on new CV driveshafts the basis of what might happen in a small number of cases with little definitive evidence on the cause either way is kind of difficult to justify.

Clearly if bearings were on their way out I probably wouldn’t split the hub or buy reconditions ones, which I’m sure means new bearings and a repaint at best.

So the question of what to do and that leads to a couple of questions.

Are the new hubs that are available the same design as the original and thus would suffer from the same issues eventually. Though with the comments about triumph 2000’s failing at 4 or 5 years and 70k won’t really affect me (or most of us ) as 70k with represents about 20 years and I won’t be driving by then.

Are the uprated replacement hubs on that same original design or different and if they are of the original design what makes them uprated?

Similar with the whole CV driveshafts, is the hub element the same or different in its design?

If the new hubs are different what in the design makes them fail safe?

After all the differences could be fairly crucial and with the cost of for “new” hubs ranging from £330 to £895 the prices seem very different indeed.

Cheers  Keith

Hi Keith,

Well, it's a rash man who makes a claim that any design makes anything failsafe !  However when I decided to replace my Stags original equipment hubs and with CV driveshafts, I bought from CDD after inspecting their products at various trade shows and speaking with Alasdair about how they were made. If you go on the CDD website this is how the hubs are described there.

 UPRATED REAR UJ HUB

£440 (Each)

for Triumph  Independent  Rear Suspension (IRS) price Each
Fitted to TR4 IRS, TR5, TR6, STAG, INNSBRUCK & TVR ‘M’ Series

The problems with these units are widely known and acknowledged.

They were fine when they were new, but now they are regarded as a ‘pain’!

The need for specialist tools or big hydraulic presses to dissemble.

That they are very hard to build and maintain the bearing end float.

The flange becomes thinner as they have to be skimmed due to distortion.

The Yoke UJ diameters become bigger the more they are dissembled and reassembled.

In addition the flanges are known to crack and fail.

And the holding thread to the shaft shears. 

THE  REDESIGNED,  MADE FROM NEW COMPONENTS,  TRIUMPH REAR HUB UNITS  SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS AND PROVIDE IMPORTANT UPGRADES. 

Splined shaft and flange construction does not need ‘big’ pullers to separate.

Bearings are solidly spaced using shim washers so do not go out of adjustment.

Wear compensation is easily accomplished with DIY tools.

Because of this the flanges are not distorted so do not need skimming.

And driveshaft joints do not need to be disassembled so often.

Thread to shaft diameter is increased by 85%.

Flange design has increased diameters and radii to stop cracking and failure.

Bearing sizes are increased and bearing design has been validated by Timken UK.

Only Top quality materials, bearings and seals are used.

No Cheap Far East bits!

Installation Instructions

 

From this description of the items it answered the pertinent points that I had identified were most important to me

 

Splined shaft and flange construction does not need ‘big’ pullers to separate.

Bearings are solidly spaced using shim washers so do not go out of adjustment.

Wear compensation is easily accomplished with DIY tools.

Because of this the flanges are not distorted so do not need skimming.

 

I decided ALL these factors would make the components a better choice and allow me to keep wheels on the back of the car (Stag in my case) rather than trust the original components with unknown provenance and previous dismantlers dissembling methods (which could involve caveman processes) !

Please don't take my comments above as an advertisement or endorsement for CDD or any other manufacturer or process of keeping the wheels upon any Triumph. Sometimes in life and after researching with due diligence you make a choice which you have to stand by, which I have done with mine. I trust that the choices you make for your car (and let's not forget your safety and those of your passengers) also works out.

Mick Richards

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey
Spelling

[Keith66]

4 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

If you go on the CDD website this is how the hubs are described there

Yep tried to go to the CCD website yesterday but Firefox went nuts and categorised it as a dodgy website and said not to visit, so I didn’t.

Its really about trying to understand the risk factors. If the issue is the original hubs have been abused or had poor maintenance techniques used (ie splitting incorrectly) and a new hub helps simply by new rather than 50 years old or is it mainly the design which is intolerant of any subsequent maintenance or is simply too old to be safe and a new hub of a different design is the only way to go.

After all £800 would cover getting the Rover 25 brakes done and through another MOT and that get used daily

Cheers  Keith

[Waldi]

Hi Keith,

Risk = change x consequence, that’s common.

Large companies use a risk matrix for this, it is a tool which can help to have a better understanding the risks and manage risk.

In this case, it will be hard if not impossible to quantify the risk I’m afraid but maybe others can. We are lacking data.

Keep enjoying the TR;)

Cheers,
Waldi

 

[Motorsport Mickey]

5 hours ago, Keith66 said:

Yep tried to go to the CCD website yesterday but Firefox went nuts and categorised it as a dodgy website and said not to visit, so I didn’t.

Its really about trying to understand the risk factors. If the issue is the original hubs have been abused or had poor maintenance techniques used (ie splitting incorrectly) and a new hub helps simply by new rather than 50 years old or is it mainly the design which is intolerant of any subsequent maintenance or is simply too old to be safe and a new hub of a different design is the only way to go.

After all £800 would cover getting the Rover 25 brakes done and through another MOT and that get used daily

Cheers  Keith

I understand Keith, and that;s your choice, it's your car. I had to make a different decision that sat more comfortably with me.

Mick Richards

Edited November 7, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey

[Andy Moltu]

If you opt for rebuilt units, make sure they have been built with new stub axles.

Time has shown that the originals supplied new were fundamentally fit for purpose, however they are all now old, fatigued by years of use and time has also shown rebuilding has been the final straw for many stub axles.

 

[Macleesh]

15 hours ago, Waldi said:

Hi Keith,

Risk = change x consequence, that’s common.

Large companies use a risk matrix for this, it is a tool which can help to have a better understanding the risks and manage risk.

In this case, it will be hard if not impossible to quantify the risk I’m afraid but maybe others can. We are lacking data.

Keep enjoying the TR;)

Cheers,
Waldi

 

Taking the risk matrix concept further, any risk that has consequences of harm to person or persons requires mitigation. In this case a hub failure is likely to render the car uncontrollable, a collision is possible if not probable with the potential to injure or kill occupants and involve other road users. Therefore mitigation definitely required. The only way that I could see to achieve that was brand new hubs and drive shafts. Others may have a different appetite for the risk, I just wanted a fit and forget solution that didn't leave me in a constant state of anxiety every time I got in the car.

[PodOne]

27 minutes ago, Macleesh said:

Taking the risk matrix concept further, any risk that has consequences of harm to person or persons requires mitigation. In this case a hub failure is likely to render the car uncontrollable, a collision is possible if not probable with the potential to injure or kill occupants and involve other road users. Therefore mitigation definitely required. The only way that I could see to achieve that was brand new hubs and drive shafts. Others may have a different appetite for the risk, I just wanted a fit and forget solution that didn't leave me in a constant state of anxiety every time I got in the car.

+1 No Brainer

[iani]

6 hours ago, Macleesh said:

Taking the risk matrix concept further, any risk that has consequences of harm to person or persons requires mitigation. In this case a hub failure is likely to render the car uncontrollable, a collision is possible if not probable with the potential to injure or kill occupants and involve other road users. Therefore mitigation definitely required. The only way that I could see to achieve that was brand new hubs and drive shafts. Others may have a different appetite for the risk, I just wanted a fit and forget solution that didn't leave me in a constant state of anxiety every time I got in the car.

Exactly the thought process that I went through when I selected new CDD shafts & hubs, didn't get me very far though, few k miles & a couple of years.

[Motorsport Mickey]

Iani,

We are all awaiting what information comes back to you as to the reason for your hub failure.

As we've seen before from some of the other hubs (Moss) which have suffered from embarrassingly short "in use" failures (months even), making a preventative purchase decision is sometimes not rewarded with a trouble-free life. So much now rests upon a conciliatory reception from the suppliers and an encouraging explanation as to what happened along with a prompt resolution of your problem.

Mick Richards

[DRD]

Often it's best to adopt the old adage, 'if it ain't broke don't try and fix it.'

[Motorsport Mickey]

14 hours ago, DRD said:

Often it's best to adopt the old adage, 'if it ain't broke don't try and fix it.'

That's exactly the problem, with the stub axles cracking and the hubs cracking from inside owners can't guess whether it's broken or not, in my opinion doing nothing is a hazardous option.

Because of the position of the stub axle and the hub construction it's quite possible they are cracked or cracking in areas where a crack tester can't get to. As long as new hubs are built to satisfactory quality whether of the original design or a new design replacing 50 year old hubs where you don't know how they've been treated or what's been done to them if bearings have been changed before, changing old for new hubs should be a sensible precaution. 

As has been reported by TR owners who worked for firms that ran the big Triumphs they were experiencing stub and hub failures within the first 3 years of life or 100,000 miles. So no surprise now 50 years and a possible myriad of miles later that every year more original equipment is crying...enough. Let's hope the reports upon early failures of new hubs can be attributed to a particular circumstance, and remedial action taken to satisfy owners.

Mick Richards    

Edited November 9, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey

[harrytr5]

Well balanced and I thank you for that Mick.

We must have ten of us or more running around with CDD complete hubs and driveshafts for exactly the reasons for changing. A couple of our members have lost wheels with one ending up in a ditch with old or rebuilt original hubs.

It is just  not worth the risk!!

Regards Harry

[Andy Moltu]

Afik the CCD hubs were sourced from a modern Japanese car of greater weight than the TRs. Obviously there may be different leadings when used on the TRs. No product is immune to failure or perhaps the odd sub standard component.

Are the CCD hubs on the GT6 the same as the TR ones?

[iani]

9 hours ago, Andy Moltu said:

Afik the CCD hubs were sourced from a modern Japanese car of greater weight than the TRs. Obviously there may be different leadings when used on the TRs. No product is immune to failure or perhaps the odd sub standard component.

Are the CCD hubs on the GT6 the same as the TR ones?

No Andy, they aren't, the failure on my GT6 was the shaft shearing, the failure on a Stag CV shaft I have seen was the shaft shearing, I know of a third instance on a Spitfire, same shafts as my GT6. My concern is with the steel used, I know that EN24 is commonly used for driveshafts, what I don't know is how it has been heat treated.

[Waldi]

Hi Ian,
This is thin ice for me because I’m not an automotive engineer but I have specified and used the DIN equivalent (34CrNiMo6) of EN24 on several occasions where more common steels failed. 

It can be used in different forms of heat treatment.

Too high strength/hardness (which may seem attempting) and the material is less ductile (and forgiving).

I hope a thorough analysis will be done on your failed shaft, both the supplier and customers would benefit!

Please keep us posted.

Waldi