1 week with electronic ignition... I went back, ...then returned.

[Jules TR6]

I've just changed the title of this thread, as my good vibes 'going back' to new points from electronic ignition didn't last, and I've now returned to electronic ignition. That's how the later posts went here, so I thought I should say that off that bat (as this has become quite a long thread).

Original post >

Ok I'm new here - and to Triumph cars. TR6 PI 1969 and it's distributor is original - an maybe even its points (- the static half was not flat but cup shaped!).

I loved the sound of its straight six, others didn't seem 'get it', but there was some warm throaty musical notes that ascended smoothly that were special. I'm talking in the past tense here as due to misfiring issues, I decided to replace several parts on the electrical side which looked due for a change anyway.

Coil, spark leads, rotor and why not - put electronic ignition in (UK magnetic hall effect £40 job). I read the pros and maybe the cons, and thought why not see for myself, it's just timing the delivery of a spark.

The misfire was gone, great. But the engine seemed different, harder, more 'square-wave' than sine wave, performance was down, it wasn't as willing to go, it had become normal. Not it's old self, no pleasure, but then again it was even running ...yet somehow actually 'electronic' rather than musical. Hard to explain. Re-tuned it, with more advance, helped to regain some performance, but it was still a bit harsh 'square-wave' and normal - not the willing sports car it was.

On known straights where I could get up to 70mph, now it was 60mph, but mainly it didn't sound or feel right.

I bit the bullet and thought, no more tweaking, just order a new condenser and points.

First time doing work in a distributor, not difficult, though I did everything by the book, placed the connectors exactly on the fixed post as factory spec, the LT terminal (from the coil) under the condenser terminal, and the turned down part of the terminal on the outer side of the contact spring, etc.

The car started, and immediately I could hear the old warm throaty engine was back. It was like a miracle. On the road, it was a sports car again, pulling like it wanted to and smoothly without any angularity to the engine note.

Now I understand points better, I wouldn't convert a points distributor to electronic again, though I didn't try the £500-700 options ...but why try them? - when points are great. Ok every now and again they might need some minor adjustment, but this is a classic car, that's part of it. Take that yearly check out of the equation with electronic ignition and what do you gain, a harsher engine all year round. Those that use electronic ignition and find it good, might be correct, on the other hand they might not realise what they are missing. I am a musician so I hear and feel notes, as well as engine notes! I do think the electronic ignition was more even, but overall on other counts worse.

It seems that a Hall Effect sensor, due to having no moving parts actually takes longer to change states than a physical opening and closing contact. It maybe that due to this, the coil has less time to charge or the spark duration is less/weaker, or both, or has a slope. Also the preprogramed advance curves can't be a one size fits all (the TR6 PI doesn't even have vacuum advance/retard). The Lucas distributor well with its designed points - and with the PI engine.

Oh and BTW the points and condenser came from the Distributor Doctor, I'm so glad I found him (Martin), as the parts are superior quality, made like things used to be! - solid and precise. Even the small round felt pad (to be soaked in oil) that sits under the rotor arm on the cam screw, was perfect, and as often it is missing you don't know you need it! Again, it was when I asked the Distributor Doctor was there anything else I might need? - the felt pad was added.

The TR6 deserves to keep its points - and play it's original tune.

My first post, I hope it's optimistic!

/

I also feel that I should ask a question! -

after a 20 minute run, engine warmed up/hot. I stalled the engine while reversing. I couldn't start it again, just kept turning over. Waited a minute, no start. Any ideas why?

Waited an hour, it started as normal.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Jules TR6
Amended the title to reflect a change in my opinion.

[Z320]

Hi Jule,

this could be one reason:

did you have the ignition on with the electronic unit for more than 1 minute

while the enigne was not running? For example to adjust or check anything?

Did anybody tell you to give attention on not to do this in any case?

My TR4A runs lovely with such a electric unit.

Ciao, Marco

Edited September 23, 2023 by Z320

[Jules TR6]

2 hours ago, Z320 said:

did you have the ignition on with the electronic unit for more than 1 minute

while the enigne was not running? For example to adjust or check anything?

Did anybody tell you to give attention on not to do this in any case?

...Yes I read up about these lower priced units, and not to have the ignition key to 'on' without the engine running, otherwise the module might overheat and blow. I usually give the fuel pump 10 seconds then start. The problem, sound and power wasn't just on start up, but general driving.

The electronic ignition ran find, and even, no actual issues, but if I hadn't have known how good the points were from the week previous, I wouldn't have known that the electronic ignition wasn't as good. Needs the comparison.

Maybe a 6 cylinder is more picky than a 4, for sure the coil has less time to charge with a 6 pot, and points are more immediate in their on/off than a hall effect sensor which does take some time to transition states.

All I can say is putting new points back in has get me back to where I wanted to be ...and I now have a spare electronic ignition in the boot.

[Mk2 Chopper]

Hi and welcome to the forum and TR ownership. 

Yes you are right on that straight 6 sound.

I would suggest the electronic ignition was in some way defective, I use pertronix and find no difference to well set up new points, it's just consistency over time compared to points and if there is any shaft wear, that would affect points more. The downside is not leaving the ignition on without the engine running, and on a P.I. we like to prime the pump for a short time. But knowing that is the case, you use it accordingly.

It's possible the timing would change a tad when changing from points to electronic, so it's good practice to check that after installation, just as you would when fitting new points. 

There's no question that points work really well and when you have quality parts (DD), it'll just need the odd adjustment to keep it good. 

As for the stalled engine, I wonder if it was to do with heat, some fuel vaporisation perhaps? Do you have nylon injector pipes or braided? When turning the engine over when it won't start, can you feel pulses in those injector lines? 

Gareth

[Z320]

Hi Jules,

sorry me, also a welcome from me to ownership and joining the forum.

Classic point work too, I changed because of the worries of poor condenser,

and got worries about a poor working (because damaged) electric unit 

The expensive Ignition 1 can get this problems too.

Ciao, Marco 

[Jules TR6]

As the new points have got me to where I want to be, I'll stick with them until which time they in some way encourage me to try electronic again - which would be Pertronix (the previous, which now resides in the boot was another brand - and probably not so well made).

The fuel lines over the engine are steel braided, and the engine does get very hot indeed. When I came to adjust the timing via turning the distributor I almost couldn't hold it, it was so hot - but I guess this is normal.

Next time I have a 'wont' start' situation when hot, I'll check for pulsing in the braided injector hoses. I had read nylon are better (probably on this forum), but as this is a new car (to me), and I've already done quite a bit to make it run properly, and a few safety details, I didn't want to immediately embark on all the 'upgrades'.

A stall is quite an unusual and abrupt situation for an engine, I assumed it might have flooded, the injectors continuing to fill the engine with fuel after loss of ignition. So either the hour wait evaporated this fuel or it cooled the fuel lines. Not sure which, but would like it not to happen again.

[Mk2 Chopper]

1 minute ago, Jules TR6 said:

As the new points have got me to where I want to be, I'll stick with them until which time they in some way encourage me to try electronic again - which would be Pertronix (the previous, which now resides in the boot was another brand - and probably not so well made).

The fuel lines over the engine are steel braided, and the engine does get very hot indeed. When I came to adjust the timing via turning the distributor I almost couldn't hold it, it was so hot - but I guess this is normal.

Next time I have a 'wont' start' situation when hot, I'll check for pulsing in the braided injector hoses. I had read nylon are better (probably on this forum), but as this is a new car (to me), and I've already done quite a bit to make it run properly, and a few safety details, I didn't want to immediately embark on all the 'upgrades'.

A stall is quite an unusual and abrupt situation for an engine, I assumed it might have flooded, the injectors continuing to fill the engine with fuel after loss of ignition. So either the hour wait evaporated this fuel or it cooled the fuel lines. Not sure which, but would like it not to happen again.

The braided seem to have the reputation for being affected by the heat. Once the engine stops the Metering Unit stops, so no more fuel will be pushed through. It is possible for the injectors to dribble once shut off and lose the pressure in the line, so it could be a combination of both, the braided lines causing vapour and leaking injectors. Mine takes longer to start when hot especially when it's just been shut off and restarted.

Gareth

[cp25616]

Morning Jules and welcome.

I had a total fail with a Lumenition electronic box on one of my previous TR6's and vowed never to go down the "supposedly foolproof" electronic route ever again. Once bitten and all that.  As a point of interest Jules you might like to change to another coil.  Why?  Your TR6 was hot and it "stalled" . Did it actually stall or was it the coil cutting out due to over-heating? You state it started after an hour, well it probably would have started in less time than that but only after it had cooled down enough. It certainly would be my first port of call anyway.

Alan G

[Andy Moltu]

A few things spring to mind.

A defective electronic ignition unit.

Timing incorrect. (Many electronic units are hard to time statically, so I would rough set and once started strobe to 32 degrees at 4000rpm an road tune if it pinks, using the knurled nut on the dizzy until it just doesn’t pink.

A 12 volt unit operating at 8v (only applies to CR cars with ballast resistor)

I don’t buy into the theory that the Hall effect being slower to break the field in the coil and slower to rebuild than points.

In perfect condition the difference between points and electronic ignition should be almost imperceptible but points wear and gaps close affecting dwell and timing (without adjustment)) Distributors wear and timing scatter is more of a factor with points.

 

No electronic ignition is infallible. They will all conk out eventually but as with most electronics this is either almost immediately because of defective components or after a very long time unless subject to something like the wires being put on with the wrong polarity! But to suggest a points set up is infallible is not correct either. Points wear out and condensers fail.  Given that points are conservatively £5 a pop and condensers similarly, an electronic unit pays for itself fairly soon. You wouldn’t go far without caring a spare set of points and condenser, the same should apply to carrying a cheap electronic unit just in case.

[Jules TR6]

31 minutes ago, cp25616 said:

As a point of interest Jules you might like to change to another coil.  Why?  Your TR6 was hot and it "stalled" . Did it actually stall or was it the coil cutting out due to over-heating?

The coil is a new dry resin filled Viper unit, I think it's ok, unless the traditional oil filled coils actually help in some way?

Works fine on the road.

+ yes I stalled it, a simple mistake of too low revs to reverse!

[RobH]

49 minutes ago, Jules TR6 said:

As the new points have got me to where I want to be, I'll stick with them until which time they in some way encourage me to try electronic again - which would be Pertronix

I had a Pertronix unit which failed every time it warmed up. 

You are not "safe" against failure with any make of electronic ignition - they are all pretty reliable but as with any complex system they can all suffer from random failures of components and the more components there are the more likely it becomes  (though still rare of course), so don't think that spending oodles of money on a better one is a sure-fire guarantee. 

The thing is if you do get a failure there is nothing you can do except swap it for another and throw the old one away.  The Kettering points system on the other hand is simple, cheap and easily fixable at the road-side. 

[PodOne]

Not run my TR6 for long but was alarmed on how hot the coil was (I couldn’t touch it) so have moved it to the inner wing where it now get’s barely warm. 
 

Perhaps a better place.

[Mk2 Chopper]

I had the 'coil failure' due to heat, cooled the coil down and refitted and started fine. 

But when I put this on the forum one time, another poster (I forget who) that gives good advice on all things electrical, felt that there was no way for a coil to be intermittent, it would either work or be broken, and that it was more likely that the act of removing and refitting had cured the issue (bad connections).

Gareth

[Mike C]

I've had a Pertronix fitted since October 2006, I've had no problems at all with it.

[RogerH]

I have had two Lumention magnetronic modules.

The first lasted just over a year.

The replacement has run with no issues  from apprx 2000.

There is  usually only one issue with these things - they die instantly - unlike points.

 

Roger

[StuartG]

I gave up on electronic ignition after two let me down. Quality points and condenser just less hassle......

[Jules TR6]

Ok folks, the honeymoon is over.

The previous 10 minute trips were a false positive - though at the time they were VERY positive.

5 minutes into a 20 minute trip today and I noticed a misfire or two, then it just got worse and worse and worse, like a bucking horse.

I had adjusted the distributor / timing a touch, and maybe the points gap, but all was pretty much as before, but the misfire was appalling.

After a 40 minute cool down, same story, first few minutes ok, then bucking like a mad horse. Such a shame, the new points setup looks so great - and seemed to be an improvement.

I'm going to have to put the cheapo electronic ignition back in this afternoon and see how that works. If that's jumpy then something else is going on. I even wonder about an airlock in an injector, though it was sweet as a nut yesterday. Grrrr...

[John L]

I have one of these units in my TR5 and has worked without any problems.   Looking at yours I think the module has been rubbing on the magnetic track, there needs to be  a business card width between the two.

The original PI's didn't have a vacuum capsule, so there is also something there that isn't right.

What ohms is your new coil?

John

Edited September 23, 2023 by John L

[JohnG]

Hi Jules

 

Ref the ignition, My 6 was fitted with electronic ignition by the late great Clive Manvers and the only difference between this and points that I noticed was . . . .nothing!

 

Regarding the fuel lines;

My 6 had these fitted when I bought it, I thought they looked pretty good.

 

However, hot starting and hot tick over were both always poor and when I needed to take it to Clive, I mentioned the issues.

 

His immediate response was, get rid of the braided hoses, go back to nylon.

This I did, without question

With Clives hoses and his fettling of the butterflys, I never had an issue from that point forward.

 

The braided hoses pulse and are a poor replacement

[RobH]

18 minutes ago, Jules TR6 said:

After a 40 minute cool down, same story, first few minutes ok, then bucking like a mad horse. Such a shame, the new points setup looks so great - and seemed to be an improvement.

I'm going to have to put the cheapo electronic ignition back in this afternoon and see how that works. If that's jumpy then something else is going on.

Something else IS going on.  If you installed the points properly there is no way that can happen.  I would check all the connections thoroughly particularly the wire from the distributor to the coil.   That wire can fracture inside the insulation near the connectors due to vibration, and the broken ends can give intermittent connection.    

 

[Jules TR6]

1 hour ago, JohnG said:

However, hot starting and hot tick over were both always poor and when I needed to take it to Clive, I mentioned the issues.

 

His immediate response was, get rid of the braided hoses, go back to nylon.

This I did, without question

With Clives hoses and his fettling of the butterflys, I never had an issue from that point forward.

 

The braided hoses pulse and are a poor replacement

Ok next job get rid of those jazzy fuel lines! - why did people ever install them knowing that engines gets hot, and s.steel conducts heat readily ?!!

Anyway thanks, John, that is a good story. In many ways I'd like to know the people who owned my TR6 before me, rather than they being unknowns.

[Jules TR6]

1 hour ago, RobH said:

Something else IS going on.  If you installed the points properly there is no way that can happen.  I would check all the connections thoroughly particularly the wire from the distributor to the coil.   That wire can fracture inside the insulation near the connectors due to vibration, and the broken ends can give intermittent connection.    

 

*** ok folks, can I do a 180 degree about-turn! ***

So the electronic ignition just went back in. Though I didn't want to go exactly back to what I had before - which somehow wasn't hitting the spot for me, so instead of the rotor arm that came with the electronic ignition, I used the one for Distribution Doctor, that does look better made and is a slightly longer, and fractionally higher.

Car started and sounded ok, drove ok, no bucking. Maybe it does sound a bit less 'fruity' - though that could be from more even running, so actually better.

I didn't notice what disappointed me before, about the electronic ignition, the flat 'square-wave' feel, it does sound and feel pretty good, could this be just due to the rotor arm? I don't know, but I can't keep swapping parts, I think I'll stick with this current set-up now! Power and willingness is maybe slightly down, but it's ok, does electronic ignition need more advance? - there's no pinging now, though they was on the points when pushing low revs.

So from the original post at the top, I'm now totally inverse. Electronic ignition has prevailed.

The points and setup were fine, I tried a 0.014", 0.015" and 0.016" gap, didn't affect the bucking issue I had today. The new high-spec condenser should have been fine, and the cam was lightly greased etc. The only not so good part, is the old ground wire that attaches the body of the distributor to the plate, it's come through it's sheath in the centre and looks a bit thin.

Anyway I really don't know why it was bucking (just as the old points and condenser did), then on putting the electronic ignition in, all ok.

As to, it is easier to fix / adjust a points system on the roadside, while a blown electronic ignition is game over, ...but can't I just have a spare electronic ignition in the boot, and swap it over quicker than adjusting/cleaning points?

In many way I wish the new points had been the ticket, but something didn't work out. I'm now waving the flag of electronic ignition!!

Edited September 23, 2023 by Jules TR6

[astontr6]

Looking at your photo of your installation of your Electronic Ignition hall affect module! I don't like the red wire is bent around itself. That may have been the cause of your problems? I have used E I. for 50 years no problems.

Bruce.

[Jules TR6]

3 minutes ago, astontr6 said:

Looking at your photo of your installation of your Electronic Ignition hall affect module! I don't like the red wire is bent around itself. That may have been the cause of your problems?

Interesting, would really make any difference though?

Where to route it otherwise, If I bring it down and anticlockwise circling all the way around, that's a lot of loose wire in there? - isn't ok and sung where it is?

[RobH]

31 minutes ago, Jules TR6 said:

Anyway I really don't know why it was bucking (just as the old points and condenser did), then on putting the electronic ignition in, all ok

You have disturbed something.  There was something fundamentally wrong but the fact that the car ran well at first with the points shows the system works properly.  The electronic system doesn't use the wire I mentioned above so perhaps it was indeed that.  By replacing the points you have just removed the faulty component. 

Points systems work perfectly well and reliably in thousands of cars. Yours should be no different. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by RobH