FatJon Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 Dear All, looking for some advice on this subject. There are differing opinions on adding the extra oil feed to the rockers but my supplier of roller rockers (Rimmer, if they ever arrive, 5 months and counting) says this is required for them. Other suppliers, eg Revington say no oil mod needed. The engine is a steel cranked near race spec unit which I'm currently building. I have seen some test data which suggests there is no significant loss of pressure - https://www.triumphexp.com/forum/tr6-tech-forum.2/rockershaft-auxillary-oil-line.1356411/ and other empirical evidence to the contrary. The main reason I'm going with the roller rockers is that I have heard lots of bad reports about the quality of aftermarket shafts and rockers so I figured that getting a full new setup which has been around for some years makes sense given the scale of the engine costs so far. Also my big valves are very big and any significant valve guide wear could be a problem. If nothing else the rollers will help in that department by not laterally loading the valves so much. Has anyone got first hand experience of roller rockers over the longer term either with or without the extra oiling mod? Jon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 I would be inclined to take Rimmers advice with a pinch of salt on anything and if your still waiting after 5 months I would be inclined to go elsewhere. If you really do want to fit this feed then the orifice in the banjo bolt needs reducing to max 1mm. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FatJon Posted January 30, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 Cheers Stuart. I just put an enquiry into Revington to see if they can do better on delivery. Was happy to wait as all the other bits were also on long delivery like crank and pistons but now everything is here other than the rockers and it's holding me up. Will take a look at the orifice on the banjo and evaluate. Maybe braze it up and re-drill 0.8mm. I'm sure they don't need a lot of oil up there but from experience with my current standard engine there's a world of difference between not much and pretty much none, which is what I see up there now. Put it this way I can do the tappets by ear with the engine running and not make much mess! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 15 minutes ago, FatJon said: I'm sure they don't need a lot of oil up there but from experience with my current standard engine there's a world of difference between not much and pretty much none, which is what I see up there now. Put it this way I can do the tappets by ear with the engine running and not make much mess! Then you have something not right as there should be more than that up there. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FatJon Posted January 30, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 1 hour ago, stuart said: Then you have something not right as there should be more than that up there. Stuart. Yes, hence building a new engine. It was getting a bit low on oil pressure and breathing a fair bit. The car was very nicely rebuilt in terms of body and chassis before I bought it but I suspect the engine wasn't given quite the same attention. I figured I could build a new engine before spring then drop it in and not lose any summer fun. Getting some of the special bits has been more challenging that expected but other than those rockers it's all here now and the machining is done so just a matter of assembling it all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 I have high ratio roller rockers on a 4 cyl that has no additional oil feed. Running as sweetly now as it always has after 25k road going miles. Rocker set came from Kingston Sportscars - Tony Dean, 20 years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FatJon Posted January 30, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 2 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said: I have high ratio roller rockers on a 4 cyl that has no additional oil feed. Running as sweetly now as it always has after 25k road going miles. Rocker set came from Kingston Sportscars - Tony Dean, 20 years ago. Do your rockers run directly on the shaft or are they bushed? I wonder if some are bushed and others not and that might be the difference in oil requirements. The Rimmer and Revington ones appear to be without bushes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 30, 2023 Report Share Posted January 30, 2023 Bushed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JochemsTR Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 I have Goodparts Roller Rocker Assy. These have needle bearings. Richard mentions also his Oil Feed line kit, however, does NOT specify whether this is a requirement for his Roller Rockers. I have yet to ask him. In my opinion, if the camshaft generates enough oil, which you can see during idle, coming thru the rockers, also @ #1 and #2, I don't think it is necessary to have an additional feed. Needle bearings do not need a oil flooded lubrication. but feel free to educate me. I had a feed on my previous engine, since it lacked oil at #1 and #2 valves. There was significant oil at the valve cover vent. That was annoying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TRTOM2498PI Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 The external rocker feed is not required, be it standard or fast road spec. Providing all oil ways are clear with no obstructions. These rockers feeds are often used to mask other, elementary issues on an engine build. i.e, poor cleanliness ! Cheers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FatJon Posted January 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 Well, I think I will skip the oil feed then. I will check the rockers furthest away from the head for sufficient oil just to be sure. I suppose it makes sense to protect the rather pricey crankshaft and bottom end at all costs unless there is a very clear and obvious problem at the top. With a hand toleranced oil pump I don't think pressure should be a problem and I'm super careful about cleanliness. The block has been tanked and chemically cleaned, plus I've just spent an hour with a borescope stuffed in every oilway and have applied repeated brushes and flushes to get them perfectly clean. Now to making a few phone calls to see if anyone can actually supply me a set of roller rockers while I'm still young enough to walk to the garage and fit them without assistance. Pretty sure some of the US suppliers will be able to pull a set off the shelf but the shipping and taxes are punitive. Thanks for all the comments and advice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roy53 Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 I thought that the external rocker feed had been well dealt with in the past and the opinion was don't use. Re roller rockers , on FIA race cars roller rockers are not allowed . When you conscider the very high costs of a full race engine and the use they get it shows that the standard setup works fine. Roy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 The difference between suppliers may be due to the type/quality of roller bearing. Open bearings will allow oil to fall out of the sides, while bearings with seals built in will not. But the flow through open bearings would be so large as to require an external supply that is not fitted with a flow restrictor. That flow, through a low resistance pathway, is almost certain to 'rob' the main and big ends, depriving hem of flow. Discuss with Remington's for more informed advice! John (merely a satisfied Remington customer) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 2 hours ago, FatJon said: Well, I think I will skip the oil feed then. I will check the rockers furthest away from the head for sufficient oil just to be sure. I suppose it makes sense to protect the rather pricey crankshaft and bottom end at all costs unless there is a very clear and obvious problem at the top. With a hand toleranced oil pump I don't think pressure should be a problem and I'm super careful about cleanliness. The block has been tanked and chemically cleaned, plus I've just spent an hour with a borescope stuffed in every oilway and have applied repeated brushes and flushes to get them perfectly clean. Now to making a few phone calls to see if anyone can actually supply me a set of roller rockers while I'm still young enough to walk to the garage and fit them without assistance. Pretty sure some of the US suppliers will be able to pull a set off the shelf but the shipping and taxes are punitive. Thanks for all the comments and advice. Does Racetorations have stock? https://www.racetorations.co.uk/product/roller-rocker-set-tr5-6/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FatJon Posted January 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 1 hour ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said: Does Racetorations have stock? https://www.racetorations.co.uk/product/roller-rocker-set-tr5-6/ Unfortunately not since they are 4 minutes drive from me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
barkerwilliams Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 (edited) My car has Good parts rollers, done about 16,000 miles with original oil feed no problems at all. When fitted I emailed Richard who replied Feb 2015 Alan, My roller rockers do not require any more oil that the original rocker assembly. In fact the needle bearing roller rockers can live with less oil than the original rockers but the oil fed through the rocker assembly also lubricates the valve stems and tappets so you still want plenty of flow through the rocker assembly. Since the needle bearings allow oil to flow through more freely than the original rockers you may actually see an increase in oil flow coming out of the rocker assembly when you install the roller rockers. So the question is, do you need the external oil feed line? Well, the amount of oil flowing through the internal channel seems to vary from one engine to the next so I make a judgment call based on the amount of oil I see flowing out of the rocker assembly. Usually I end up with the external feed line but with a restriction. To restrict the flow I tap a roll pin into the fitting on the lower end of the hose. The hole through the fitting is 3/32" so I use a 3/32" x 1" long roll pin. This leaves plenty of pin protruding in case you want to remove it. The tee fitting that the hose screws onto has room for the protruding pin. Regards, Richard If your engine has poor supply oil to rockers isn't that an indication of a worn camshaft bearing and the scroll cam? Line boring the camshaft bearings may not typically be part of an engine rebuild. Alan Edited January 31, 2023 by barkerwilliams Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted January 31, 2023 Report Share Posted January 31, 2023 Sorry me for 2 questions. The rollers are connected in which way with the rockers? And how do the roller rockers move on the rocker shaft? Thanks in advance Ciao, Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 9 hours ago, Z320 said: Sorry me for 2 questions. The rollers are connected in which way with the rockers? And how do the roller rockers move on the rocker shaft? Thanks in advance Ciao, Marco I guess it’s these type or similar Marco. If pictures help ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FatJon Posted February 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 Marco to elaborate a little on Hamish's picture there are 3 possible variants. 1. Aluminium rockers direct to steel shaft 2. Aluminium rockers but bushed with some bearing material onto steel shaft 3. Needle roller bearings between rocker and shaft This complicates the question about how much oil is needed, especially as I have not yet found a supplier for any of the 3 variants who has stock. My plan is to see what I can get and then make some tests before deciding on oil needs. I'm not sure the needle roller bearings are a great idea as the shaft is a small diameter so not many needles and high point loads on each contact area. They are all rollers in terms of how they apply force to the tip of the valve but only number 3 is a roller in terms of how it bears on the shaft. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) Hmmmm, Hamish, sadly it is not possible to see how the „bearings“ of the roller rockers work. But I have a simple view and Jon also points this way - sliding surfaces like the original TR4A rockers with bushes on the rocker shaft and rockers on valve stems need oil - sliding steel rockers on a steel shaft needs more oil - moving on roller bearings or needle bearings need less oil Menas: better bearings --> less oil is needed. This may help to get to a own assessment about the need for an external rocker oil supply. Ciao, Marco Edited February 1, 2023 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rockie51 Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 I have Goodparts roller rockers on my 4A. When the engine was built about 20 years ago, I could not get a new rocker shaft so the head reconditioner obtained a good second hand one. When I replaced that with the roller rockers about 7 years ago, the engine seemed smoother or as smooth as a 4 could be! I put that down to each cylinder now getting equal intake rather than a small difference between each cylinder. There was a noticeable increase in performance. I had to get new pushrods made to get the correct geometry on the rockers. My mechanic is a perfectionist. I have now done about 10,000 miles with the new rockers. Marco, the rockers have needle roller bearings. I have not put the extra oil feed in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 Could go the whole hog….build an external oil feed manifold ala Kastner octopus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DRD Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 What's the stock rocker ratio? I've seen 1.46:1 and 1.5:1 both quoted. Cheers Darren Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, DRD said: What's the stock rocker ratio? I've seen 1.46:1 and 1.5:1 both quoted. Cheers Darren Tongue in cheek response….both if they are repro. Edited February 3, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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