Ripped-off?

[qim]

Hi

 

I came to an agreement with my mechanic to the cost of dismantling the car and putting it back together.

 

I want to take advantage that included in that is the fact that engine and gearbox will be sitting on a work-bench to do a couple of extra things. One is to fit an uprated oil seal http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-60862RCT.

 

Now, I understand that he has to send the crankshaft to a lathe mechanic (or whatever you call him) to machine the part into the crankshaft.

 

How long does it take / how much would you expect to pay in the UK for this additional work, bearing in mind that the engine and gearbox are out already?

 

Thanks

 

Camilo

Edited December 28, 2016 by qim

[Fireman049]

Hi qim ~

 

If you contact the TR Shop in London they do the 'Mad Marx' rear crank seal which doesn't

need the crank machining. I've fitted one of these to my 3A. You then have the advantage

of the original scroll seal and the new seal.

 

Here's a photo of the seal in position.

 

Tom.

 

[TR 2100]

OK - but better to talk in hours - no idea of labour charges in Portugal.

 

Split the engine/gearbox.

Remove clutch and flywheel

Remove fan assembly

Remove sump

Remove main bearings

Remove con rods and bearings

Remove crank and send to specialist

 

Re-assembly in reverse - but - would you expect your mechanic to

check the condition of the clutch, main bearings, con rod bearings

and replace most components unless they are in A1 condition?

including checking end float.

And maybe balancing or re-balancing components.

 

Remember also that your mechanic now has to be responsible for

a rebuilt bottom end.

And you have no way of knowing if a P O has done some botches.

 

No idea what you have been quoted, but consider if the quotation

includes new parts or if they are to be billed separately.

 

AlanR

[qim]

Thank you AlanR

 

...but how many hours, then, if no other problems found? I get the parts, separately.

Edited December 28, 2016 by qim

[qim]

Hi qim ~

 

If you contact the TR Shop in London they do the 'Mad Marx' rear crank seal which doesn't

need the crank machining. I've fitted one of these to my 3A. You then have the advantage

of the original scroll seal and the new seal.

 

Here's a photo of the seal in position.

 

Tom.

DSCF0237.JPG

 

 

Hi Tom

 

How long would it take to do this job?

 

And what are the advantages/disadvantages comparing with the upgraded seal from RimmerBros?

[foster461]

The process for both seals is about the same but with the Marx seal you dont have the added cost and non-reversible process of machining the crankshaft. The Marx seal does not affect the original scroll mechanism but backs it up with a modern seal.

 

Stan

[qim]

Hi Stan

 

The uprated Rimmer iol seal is £100; the mad marx is apparently £130 and needs a centering tool.

 

I wonder if my TR mechanic who has done the other conversion is up yo it with the Mad Marx. Or is it intuitive for an experienced mechanic?

Edited December 28, 2016 by qim

[Fireman049]

TR Shop will supply the centring tool on hire. You can then return it and get a partial refund on the cost.

The 'Mad Marx' seal is extremely simple to install and as previously stated you then have the advantage

of two oil seals.

 

Tom.

 

[Motorsport Mickey]

The Marx seal is excellent and retains the original oil scroll on the crankshaft and fits behind it as per Toms very clear photo. The Marx seal comes with clear instructions but from memory does need the alloy rear crank scroll housing which fits around the crank scroll onto the rear mains,machining to accept the seal. (Never fitted one myself yet, but shall on the next engine rebuild).

 

Mick Richards

[Fireman049]

The 'Marks' oil seal comes complete with the alloy housing which does not need to be machined.

 

Tom.

[stuart]

The Mad Marx one is far better idea, as stated TR Shop London. Wouldnt ever bother with the other as its a bodge out of a Landrover seal and unless very accurately machined and set up can still leak and is not reversible.

Stuart.

[qim]

OK. Thanks, but back to the OP

 

How many hours for both jobs?

[foster461]

The early version of the Marx seal relied on a machined pair of the alu housings to accept the seal. They supplied a pair with the kit and you sent your originals back so they could be machined and used for another customer. Later, they re-manufactured special seal housings removing the need to butcher the originals.

 

Any seal installation including the original factory scheme needs an alignment tool designed for the specific application. They are dirt cheap and should not significantly skew the cost of the kit. I have at least three of them.

 

Stan

[foster461]

OK. Thanks, but back to the OP

 

How many hours for both jobs?

 

You would normally do this as part of a major engine overhaul when it is going to come apart anyway. I'm guessing 8 to 10 hours of labor to strip and re-assemble the motor with the new rear seal and only worth doing if the rest of the engine was going to be refreshed at the same time. If the engine has a lot of miles on it then the chances are there will be other issues once it is opened up anyway.

 

Stan

[qim]

The only idea is to stop an oil leak (not too serious) but as the engine is out...

[JJC]

As it happens I have the original TR seal on our 2 in a well rebuilt engine. It doesn't leak. I have the Land Rover "bodge" (thank you Stuart) in the 4 and it doesn't leak. In fact it's the only thing on that engine that doesn't leak. To answer your question for the TR 2 no hours outside my rebuild, for the TR4 from memory about £100 extra to other machining work so I guess 1 1/2 hours. JJC

[qim]

So, I'm starting to think that maybe I will just replace the original rear seal (the two half-moons). How long should that take if the engine is sitting on a work-bench attached to the gear-box?

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Hi qim ~

 

If you contact the TR Shop in London they do the 'Mad Marx' rear crank seal which doesn't

need the crank machining. I've fitted one of these to my 3A. You then have the advantage

of the original scroll seal and the new seal.

 

Here's a photo of the seal in position.

 

Tom.

DSCF0237.JPG

+1

M35TR4 is a Bastuk remake http://www.bastuck.de/00reloaded/media/pict/FGG_1180110000.png

Edited December 28, 2016 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[RogerH]

Hi Qim,

As mentioned already -

The Rimmer seal (available elsewhere) is non reversible. The crank scroll is machined (£100+). This seal can work but has had failures.

The Christian Marx seal fits the original crank with scroll. It is a little more expensive (£130) + hire of mandrel but you do not pay for the crank to be machined.

There is no time lost at the machine shop.

 

Fitting the Christian Marx seal takes about two hours if that.

 

I have both seals on my 4 (Rimmere type) & 4A(Christian Marx) and I know which I prefer =-m the Christian Marx. A mandrel can be made locally.

 

Roger

[foster461]

Hi Qim,

As mentioned already -

The Rimmer seal (available elsewhere) is non reversible. The crank scroll is machined (£100+). This seal can work but has had failures.

The Christian Marx seal fits the original crank with scroll. It is a little more expensive (£130) + hire of mandrel but you do not pay for the crank to be machined.

There is no time lost at the machine shop.

 

Fitting the Christian Marx seal takes about two hours if that.

 

I have both seals on my 4 (Rimmere type) & 4A(Christian Marx) and I know which I prefer =-m the Christian Marx. A mandrel can be made locally.

 

Roger

 

So Roger, you are assuming that you can fit the Marx seal without removing the crank ?. I'm struggling to see how you can dismantle half the engine and re-assemble it in two hours. You might get the gearbox, sump and fan off in two hours.

 

Stan

[qim]

Fitting the Christian Marx seal takes about two hours if that.

 

 

You mean from the moment you starts dismantling the engine and gearbox to put everything back together again (all outside the engine bay).?

[RogerH]

er - No.

Sorry Qim,

once you have the engine on the bench, you need to remove the crank etc. Fitting the seal and its holder takes apprx 2 hours or so.

The Rimmer seal is a little quicker but it does need a lot more work before fitting.

 

I would only recommend the Christian Marx Seal.

 

As a side line - I have been playing with a Fergy TRactor crank (almost identocal to ther TR crank). These do not have the scroll seal but is the same diameter.

They use a very big lip seal like the Rimmer but bigger. Due to their size and environment (and many miles) the can wear a grove in the seal contact surface.

But it is cheap.

 

Roger

[qim]

Sorry Roger, bt I'm not sure what you mean regarding time

 

How long from the time you have the engina and gearbox attached on the bench, will it take to change the seal (any one of them) and put things back together without machining: 8710 hours?

[Don H.]

qim, do you worry your mechanic will rip you off? If so, get another mechanic. The path you're starting down will end in tears if you're already worried.

 

If you're wondering about being ripped off by a subcontractor, make that your restorer/mechanics problem. When my engine was rebuilt with the Rover lip seal (pre-Christian Marx, alas, or I'd have gone that route), the total charges for engine rebuilding, including machine shop subcontracting, were in the original estimate from my shop.

[rhino_mac]

Qim, I'm no expert but once you have the engine and gearbox out of the car, it's a fairly major job to get the crank out. Basically, you need to dismantle the whole bottom end.

 

The time this takes will, I'm sure depend on a number of factors like "will the bloody bolts come undone easily". Then you have to fit the seal and rebuild the bottom end of the engine completely making sure it's all set up to tolerance.

 

What people are suggesting is that this is a lot of work just to fit a seal to stop an oil leak. If you're going to that effort, why not grind the crank, fit new mains/shells etc. All the parts you take off might be worn so why not replace them rather than rebuild an engine with old parts, only to do it again shortly. I've just looked at the parts list for my engine rebuild and it's terrifying how they mount up. Bottom end gasket set, flywheel lock tabs, thrust washers, mains, big ends, oil pump, oil pump pickup, oil, timing chain, tensioner etc etc. It's a big job splitting an engine, don't underestimate it.

 

You seem concerned by the mechanics quote or the time he is taking, otherwise why title the thread "ripped off". Why not share on here what he is charging/quoting and then the experts on here can advise if it sounds realistic or not.

 

I'm sure you can fairly cheaply drop the crank out and fit the seal but I'll bet your mechanic won't be happy bolting it back together with old parts.

Edited December 28, 2016 by rhino_mac