Shell develops new premium fuel for the engines of old cars

[V8 Lady]

This article was shared by Gary Stretton on FB - delighted to see that Shell have realised how much we all struggle with fuel issues including ethanol - worth a read.

 

https://news.classiccars.com/shell-develops-new-premium-fuel-engines-old-cars/

 

Happy Christmas one and all - ours is very quite with Alec unable to chat and not up too any visitors.

[Guest]

First: Merry Christmas to you and Alec!

 

It's good to see that a big name like Shell is formulating a classic friendly fuel. However, this is a lot of marketing and show going on for something that's pretty readily available on the continent... In Germany there's Aral and in Holland we have Firezone with 102 RON Ethanol free fuel. Luckily for me, Firezone is selling the 'Competition 102' only 300m from my home, making classic life easy. Some info here: http://competition102.com/en/

 

On the other hand, it is good to see that a major company regards the classic car scene as a Market (capital M) and not something that's an appendix on their Annual Report for shareholders. Mind you, a lot of classic cars are sold and bought for enormous sums of money by people who can influence the oil company's boardroom. Perhaps these weird prices have a positive side effect.

 

M

[Paul Down]

V8 Lady,

 

All the very best to Alec, yourself and your family for Xmas and the New Year.

 

I always appreciate his erudite offerings on the Forum and look forward to many more in 2017.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[GT6M]

All this stuff aboot re moving carbon, = sheite

carbon cannot be broken doon wid stuff thats in petrol , carbons stuff diamonds are med frae.

but what this stuff can doo, is remove the softer tarry stuff thats stik,n t,valves an pistons

which most decent fuels already have

 

A way t,get alot of the stuff oot yer cyl heed, is to trickle water thru yer manifold

the water turns t,steam, an blasts the stuff off.

 

any one ever took a cyl heed of where water was seeping in, due t,gasget going

then yel see its spotless.

an water aint got any cleaners or modifyers bung into it

 

M

[Peter Cobbold]

Happy Christmas Diane and Alec.

 

Fat chance of super fuels coming this way, the nearest 97RON to me is a hour's round trip. So I'm building water injection for lots and lots of RON.

No shortage of water hereabouts !

 

There used to be a bolt-on kit for steam injection. Once saw one on a 6. The steam removes carbon deposits. Windscreen washer pump, switiched on at full throttle, copper coil wrapped round exhaust, 'nozzle' in each carb mouth. Simples.

 

Peter

[Guest]

Happy Christmas Diane and Alec.

 

Fat chance of super fuels coming this way, the nearest 97RON to me is a hour's round trip. So I'm building water injection for lots and lots of RON.

No shortage of water hereabouts !

 

There used to be a bolt-on kit for steam injection. Once saw one on a 6. The steam removes carbon deposits. Windscreen washer pump, switiched on at full throttle, copper coil wrapped round exhaust, 'nozzle' in each carb mouth. Simples.

 

Peter

Is that the same sort of system Saab used during the 80s/90s for the 99 and 900? So called Water Injection? On the other hand, these cars were 'turbo'ed' and ran with fuel injection. Wikipedia tells me that it was water & methanol (50/50) and that it's becoming 'en vogue' again on diesel engines to steam clean the EGR valve.

 

Menno

[john.r.davies]

The last word on steam injection has to go to well known messiah and lizard fancier, David Icke: https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=161241

 

Your post made me search for such technology, which how I came upon the reptilian conspi-racist's opinions, and made me even more sceptical. This video, extolling steam injection on a Saab is the worst-lit I've ever seen, and ends with the proud exhibition of water injected as "steam".

 

At least it shows that such a system must be a bit more complicated than your - clearly simplified - description, Peter!

 

Water injected could and has cooled overheated turboed engines, by absorbing heat of vaporisation, by being ng converted to steam, and, we are told, can clean mucky engines. But added performance? Run on low octane fuel?

 

Noun

Edited December 26, 2016 by john.r.davies

[RogerH]

Hi John,

it does work but not necessarily for the right reasons.

Have a look here and scroll down to 'use on aircraft engines' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)#Use_in_aircraft

 

Water and water methanol were used up to the mid/late 70's on the TRident fleet

 

Roger

[Peter Cobbold]

The heyday of water injection in piston engines was in WWII. It is a potent antidetonant, and can add 10 octane points to 97RON.

It works by cooling the mixture charge, mainly during the compression stroke, and slowing combustion. My approach and water flow estimates are here:

https://supertrarged.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/tr6se-28-water-injection/

The main challenge is getting equal distribution of droplets between cylinders

https://supertrarged.wordpress.com/2014/11/22/tr6se-29-distribution-of-injected-water/

Effect of WI on combustion:

https://supertrarged.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/tr6se36-water-injection-effects-on-combustion-pdf.pdf

Havent written up the nuts and bolts yet, but its a bitsa with simple on-off control , a window cleaner's 150psi pump, and a couple of Bete PJ impingement atomisers:

http://www.spray-nozzle.co.uk/spray-nozzles/fog-misting-nozzles/impingement

 

Surprisng the racers haven't picked up on WI: they could resurrect those 12'5:1 compression heads that became useless when avgas was outlawed and pump fuels specified in the regs.

 

Peter

Edited December 26, 2016 by Peter Cobbold

[Peter Cobbold]

Is that the same sort of system Saab used during the 80s/90s for the 99 and 900? So called Water Injection? On the other hand, these cars were 'turbo'ed' and ran with fuel injection. Wikipedia tells me that it was water & methanol (50/50) and that it's becoming 'en vogue' again on diesel engines to steam clean the EGR valve.

 

Menno

Menno, The kit I saw on a LHD import 6 looked 1970s vintage, definitely aftermarket. I havent seen the SAAB system but I'd expect them to inject water just after the turbo to give droplets the longest possible time to break up before the inlet valves.And to switch on injection according to boost - as that is when knock needs to be killed.

WI is coming back today, with Bosch offering a system.

https://techxplore.com/news/2016-09-bosch-fuel-saving-bonus.html

WI allows higher compression ratios to be used with pump fuel, and that higher CR reduces fuel consumption at cruise. WI will be on only at wide open throttle.

BMW are going one step more complex with direct in cylinder WI:

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/07/02/bmw-1-series-with-direct-water-injection-first-drive/

Peter

Edited December 26, 2016 by Peter Cobbold

[john.r.davies]

Thank you, Roger, Peter. You and an older (than us!) generation of engineers were ahead.

John

[DaveR]

The FW190 used the system.

[Guest]

Peter, does this helps? http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Publications/PhD/99_PhD_580_LE.pdf

 

I own a Saab 96 and are member of the Dutch Saab forum. It's an ongoing discussion on the forum - more or less an academic one... I didn't find a thread about a working 'specimen'. There's a link to the site above, especially from page 95 and on, I think. Since you're used reading this intelligent stuff, perhaps you use it.

 

Menno

[Malcolm Tatton]

I still have the DIY steam injection kit that I bought in the 70's probably from an ad in E&M.

It has a water storage tank, a pump to a header tank which is mounted at the same level as the exhaust manifold, and a pair of 'steam generators' which are long bolts, drilled lenghwise through the centre and intended to be fitted through the manifold and sealed with a couple of copper washers.

Never fitted it and keep it near to tbe Smiths computerised fuel display, also bought and never fitted

Edited December 26, 2016 by Malcolm T

[Don H.]

Yes, water injection for anti-knock is old tech.

 

One of the more notable water injection systems was that fitted to the Oldsmobile F-85 Jetfire engines in the early 1960s, where a distilled water + methanol mix was injected into a high compression turbocharged engine to control detonation. It worked technically but the gains weren't enough to justify the costs and maintenance issues back in the day.

 

Note that the block went on to win two F1 championships for Brabham as the Repco 3.0 litre, and the basic design for that 215 in³ aluminum v8 engine was later sold on to the British who used it for a few years.

 

There were even DIY kits sold in the back pages of car magazines and through catalog companies like JC Whitney.

[Clarkey]

Happy Christmas Diane and Alec.

 

Fat chance of super fuels coming this way, the nearest 97RON to me is a hour's round trip. So I'm building water injection for lots and lots of RON.

No shortage of water hereabouts !

 

There used to be a bolt-on kit for steam injection. Once saw one on a 6. The steam removes carbon deposits. Windscreen washer pump, switiched on at full throttle, copper coil wrapped round exhaust, 'nozzle' in each carb mouth. Simples.

 

Peter

Peter.

Where in North wales are you?Just curious as you say your 30mins from 97 ron fuel. Do you have an Esso service station near that has Super unleaded. I can check what refinery feeds it and let you know if its Ethanol free

[Peter Cobbold]

Peter, does this helps? http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Publications/PhD/99_PhD_580_LE.pdf

 

I own a Saab 96 and are member of the Dutch Saab forum. It's an ongoing discussion on the forum - more or less an academic one... I didn't find a thread about a working 'specimen'. There's a link to the site above, especially from page 95 and on, I think. Since you're used reading this intelligent stuff, perhaps you use it.

 

Menno

Thanks Menno, The ionisation current is an interesting and cheap way of monitoring combustion pressure - given a background in electronics that I lack . I had seen the thesis, and noted that the WI flow rate was not quantified. But it did show that wi retards combustion as expected. I guess it needs a electronics engineer to devise a workable ionisation current detector/analyser to go any further.

Peter

[Peter Cobbold]

Peter.

Where in North wales are you?Just curious as you say your 30mins from 97 ron fuel. Do you have an Esso service station near that has Super unleaded. I can check what refinery feeds it and let you know if its Ethanol free

Martin, Well out in the sticks: LL21 9SN. Nearest 97 RON I know of is in either Mold ( 40 min one way) or Denbigh (30 min one way). So I'm designing the WI to let me run on 95RON ( 7min one way). Would be good to know where nearest Shell Super is, as I could go even higher on compression !

Peter.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Peter Cobbold

[Don H.]

Well out in the sticks:... Nearest 97 RON I know of is ... either 40 min ... or ... 30 min one way)...

 

Isn't that what's called a "high quality problem", Peter?

[Peter Cobbold]

 

Isn't that what's called a "high quality problem", Peter?

Don, Or Buridan's Dilemma. Peter

[Peter Cobbold]

I still have the DIY steam injection kit that I bought in the 70's probably from an ad in E&M.

 

It has a water storage tank, a pump to a header tank which is mounted at the same level as the exhaust manifold, and a pair of 'steam generators' which are long bolts, drilled lenghwise through the centre and intended to be fitted through the manifold and sealed with a couple of copper washers.

 

Never fitted it and keep it near to tbe Smiths computerised fuel display, also bought and never fitted

Malcolm, Interesting...are the steam generators bolted though the exhaust manifold- if so where does the steam go ? Peter

[adriantr4]

Hello - Water Injection ...

 

Many years ago, my great-uncle who was a tool maker & engineer of the (very) old school told me he had built a water-injection system. He was referring back to probably the mid 60's/early 70's and I think he had Fords (Cortina? MkII?). The intention was to improve mpg, and he reckoned it did work after a fashion. I think he dripped it into the carb. He was a reader of Practical Mechanics & similar. The set-up would have been pretty rough-and-ready, but functional.

 

regards, Adrian

[Malcolm Tatton]

Hi Peter, the idea is that the manifold is drilled (vertically if possible) and the bolts pass through. The header tank is at the same level as the manifold so the supply is constant. What I should have said is that there is a copper feed pipe which goes from the header tank, through the drillings in the bolts and up to the carbs. The level keeps the water in bolts replenished as the steam is then driven out of the top and into the carbs.

[Peter Cobbold]

Hi Peter, the idea is that the manifold is drilled (vertically if possible) and the bolts pass through. The header tank is at the same level as the manifold so the supply is constant. What I should have said is that there is a copper feed pipe which goes from the header tank, through the drillings in the bolts and up to the carbs. The level keeps the water in bolts replenished as the steam is then driven out of the top and into the carbs.

Hi Malcolm, That's interesting. Looks to me that they are using evaporation to steam to replace a pump and atomiser. The steam may well condense back to tiny droplets in the intake manifold - the evaporating petrol will cool the charge byup to 18C. Tiny droplets will spread more equally between the runners. Water droplets that remain suspended will probably persist through the intake stroke and then evaporate during compression as the gas heats up. That helps power.

WI is most helpful at full throttle - is there any form of control of the water flow? Where do the copper pipes end in the carbs- alongside the needle of the SU?

Peter

Edited December 26, 2016 by Peter Cobbold

[JohnG]

All

Back on the premium fuel track for a minute . . I was using Shell V-Power, but, following discussions about ethanol on the forum, I switched to Esso Synergy.

 

Now, there seems to be some support for Shell.

 

I get confused easily.

Shell V-Power Nitro or Esso Synergy?