PhilB Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Hi all, Have been a member for nearly 10 years and never ventured into the world of the forum and would appreciate some assistance. The car is a TR6 CP150 of 1972 vintage. after chasing a misfire problem and replacing injectors, Neil Ferguson rebuilt the MU , electronic ignition , I was advised the the head could be an issue. Also the garage in question threw doubt on the rings and suggested they could rebuild it all for me, just leave your wallet and your pin numbers etc.............so I decided to "have a go myself" after all how hard could it be !!!!!. Head was taken to great little engineering company in Portsmouth, they skimmed a couple of thou off the face, re-cut the valves and seats and changed the valve guides which were worn. The bores all looked fine, no lip on the stop, still with std pistons, but with the garage's words ringing in my ears decided new rings and shells would't do any harm. Purchased a de-glazer from machine mart, de-glazed the bores and reassembled, pistons the right way round, caps on the correct way. On start up she fired better than she ever had, but within seconds there was an intermittent noise that sounded like I had left a socket in the sump !!!, a cracking noise but intermittent, it didn't relate to the revs at all. Rechecked the tappets, all fine, and then pulled the sump expecting to find a stray socket...............but nothing there, double checked the end caps, all the right way round, but before i strip it all back out again, I thought I would turn to the forum for advise and inspiration. All advise much appreciated. Thanks Phil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Phil Why did you feel the need in the first place? and welcome Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steves_TR6 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Welcome to the forum Phil. I can't give you any advice I'm afraid, except to say check all the easy stuff first! Is the noise really coming from inside the engine?, you say it's not rev related? I've heard terrible sounding noises from mis-fitted, by me!, Rev damper pulley. So check every ancillary that might be banging about before tearing the engine down. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
barkerwilliams Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Phil, Buy engineers stethoscope from ebay - about £6, and work your way around a running engine; it will give you a valuable guide. But you did not mention oil pressure; is it good? If not good don't run the engine? If you didn't look at the oil pressure then remove plugs and crank engine, you should get a reasonable oil pressure. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Hello Phil, Welcome to the forum. While the sump is off I would fit new thrust washers as the originals are likely to be well worn. It is just possible that removing the rear m/b cap to replace the shells has disturbed them and that's where the noise came from. Check the TWs before running engine again. http://tr6.danielsonfamily.org/ThrustWashers.htm Peter Edited March 6, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PhilB Posted March 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Steve, good advice will double check all the ancillaries again before pulling the top off again and pulling the pistons. I didn't leave the engine running too long as the "clatter" didn't sound too healthy and I did assume the noise was coming from inside the engine as that was what where the work had just been completed. It wasn't rev related, it was intermittent, not a constant "knock" in time with the revs, thus my best description was the loose socket in the sump. Alan, will order a stethoscope if that cheap worth having a listen when I fire it up again, but hopefully without the noise. Oil pressure is good, got to over 50 when turning over with plugs out. Thanks for the input. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PhilB Posted March 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Peter, thanks good link, will add the thrust washer to the check list, so will be busy next weekend as well. Regards Phil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Peter, thanks good link, will add the thrust washer to the check list, so will be busy next weekend as well. Regards Phil Phil, Its just possible ?? that you turned the engine with rear m/b cap off and a TW dropped out unseen? Peter Edited March 6, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PhilB Posted March 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 I have dropped the sump already looking for a rogue socket, even strained the oil looking for any potential culprits, so TW's are still in place, but could have been disturbed. All food for thought, thanks for the input, much appreciated. Regards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
barkerwilliams Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Phil, If your throwing your money about, if you have a laptop why not spend £5.29 and buy a usb endoscope. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5M-7mm-6LED-Waterproof-Borescope-USB-Endoscope-Phote-Video-Inspection-Pipe-Camera-Cam-with-Snapshot-Butto/32449039666.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.224.1xaRcP&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_2,searchweb201644_4_505_506_503_504_10032_10020_502_10001_10002_10017_10005_10006_10003_10021_10004_10022_10018_10019,searchweb201560_9,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_-1&btsid=679e9f01-0a63-46a0-8dcb-477581d68df2 Might not help this time, but a great tool for those impossible to get to places. Alan Edited March 6, 2016 by barkerwilliams Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Straw clutching: Plug tapping piston ??? - check new plugs against old. Starter gear not being retracted fully from flywheel ring gear? Edited March 6, 2016 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 On start up she fired better than she ever had, but within seconds there was an intermittent noise that sounded like I had left a socket in the sump !!!, a cracking noise but intermittent, it didn't relate to the revs at all. Phil. I haven't seen this done yet . . but . . . . I wonder if sound files can be attached to posts? AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ijonsson Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) This may not be relevant, as the noise I got in my engine was more related to revs. Last winter I put in new shells (incl. TW:s), After a while I got a knocking not much different from bad shells. Not very happy I ran over the summer anyway, but this autumn I removed the sump to have a look, and guess what, I had bought a new aluminium sump because the steel one was quite impossible to get to seal due to fatigue in the steel around the bolts. With the new sump came a thin stainless steel plate sitting in top of the sump, and looking at I saw a little indentation. The plate must have buckled a bit when fitting the sump and the crank had been hitting the plate just a little, probably the plate had buckled a bit when getting hot. So I just got rid of the plate and refitted the sump and no more ticking noises! Edited March 7, 2016 by ijonsson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveN Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Broken piston ring? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewP Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) If its not rev related and the noise is not rhythmical or periodic then Id assume it wont be associated with any of the rotating or reciprocating parts...unless its a totally random event. Did you do all the work in situ without pulling the engine/gearbox? Before doing anything else Id be checking the engine freely turns over by hand..feeling for tight spots (with plugs removed)? Remove the rocker cover and check that the pushrods are all seated in their dimples and operating the valves in turn while turning the engine over as well. Im hoping you put the rings in the right way up as well and primed the oil pump before firing it up? As Daven says above...broken piston ring or a spun bearing could be the consequences if you didnt, but pretty unlucky if that were to happen. If the engine turns over freely by hand, then while you have the plugs out...quick compression test as that should show any issues with compression and rings broken. Check engine mounts and the bolts around the bellhousing etc. If everything else checks out, then run the engine briefly without any of the ancillaries attached (just remove the belt). Final idea..when running get someone to press the clutch in and see if the noise changes (gets worse or vanishes). If you have a phone/camera, you can take a short movie and post it on here (via photobucket if not). It will no doubt help if we can hear the sound as well. Cheers Andrew Edited March 7, 2016 by AndrewP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sapphire72 Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) You did set the valve lash correctly to 0.010"? (never mind, see that you mentioned tappets.) Edited March 7, 2016 by Sapphire72 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graeme Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 New valve guides fitted - the noise could be a valve sticking if clearances are tight. Did you disturb the timing chain? is the tensioner in the corrrect position? As others have said a stethoscope will help identify the area the noise is coming from. Cheers Graeme Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Intermittent noise - not related to engine speed - cracking noise - Sounds like a spark shorting but it's hard to believe that would make so much noise. AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 I have heard a metering unit going clack,clack,clack on a TR6 belonging to a friend of mine.I think he changed for a recon. Not saying it is the cause but a new one on me.Never heard anything like it, most strange. Hope you find it. Regards HarryTR5 Nutter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PhilB Posted March 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Thanks all, loads of suggestions, I am hoping the rings are still ok, and was careful to make sure "Top" was showing on the top. 50lbs PSI came up quite quickly and oil pump wasn't removed, so was happy at the time. It is possible I broke ONE getting them in but they did all feel as if they slid in without too much pressure, but hope that's not the issue as the noise isn't rhythmic its random, so in my mind have put that to the bottom of the list. The engine was in situ so didn't touch any of the timing gear, but will disconnect all the ancillaries when I fire up again. Graeme thanks, valve guides are a possible cause, will check them again IF the head comes off, but when wound over on starter motor they all appear to be doing what they should. I will also try turning over by hand and feel for tight spots, as the sump is off i will drop the end caps and see if all is still in tact and no slippage. Unfortunately, work is getting in the way so it will have to wait till the weekend before i can get out in the garage again, all suggestions gratefully received, thanks to you all and will update as it progresses, hopefully not too long. Fortunately the TR4 is still running so at least have something to drive when the sun eventually comes out. Regards Phil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT6M Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 simples really, ye bunged in new rings and a honed bore, which will have been undersize by noo, Butt, used the OE pistons, correct. this means there a good seal ont piston tops rings, which cos the gasses cant get past the rings as much, then it ..rocks the piston on to cyl wall, its piston slap, Ive found it befoer, not just on T engines either. it,ll prob dissapear at 1500 rpms does it. and will get less as engine gets hot., correct,!! M Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 simples really, ye bunged in new rings and a honed bore, which will have been undersize by noo, Butt, used the OE pistons, correct. this means there a good seal ont piston tops rings, which cos the gasses cant get past the rings as much, then it ..rocks the piston on to cyl wall, its piston slap, Ive found it befoer, not just on T engines either. it,ll prob dissapear at 1500 rpms does it. and will get less as engine gets hot., correct,!! M + 1 or dry little end. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PhilB Posted March 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Hi M, re the piston slap, I didn't run it up to 1500 so wont know if it disappears as it didn't sound healthy I backed off quite quickly. in your experience is this something that will "bed in" and thus disappear after a while, or is it there for good without a re-bore? BR Phil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT6M Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 it could be there for ever, on one of mine, which started it, it was a sort of boying / boing echoey noise. { hard to spell what im ona bout,!! }noise. it,ll go away a fair bit when hot, but try giv,n it some welly, wid foot to floor in OD top, up a long incline frae say 1200 to 3-5 K revs quite a few times to try and seat every thing in. dont let it just drive gently, rings will never seal gotta build up pressure int cyls to force rings against walls to seat em noise int cyls is nowt really to worry aboot fora cooking engine just an annoyance IF ring gap was bigg, then could have fitted next size ring up, and filed to suit / fit this takes oot the extra wear int bore, so in theory, be like a standard ring in a standard bore. Done this lots of times on older bike engines and it seems to work ok BUTT, maybe fin that ye will start to use a bit moer oil as bores are now bigger, with same size rings as OE, so no as much ring compression now, follow!! M Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Starter gear not retracting fully and intermittently hitting flywheel ring gear? - a bit like these brief sounds: Is the TR is nose-up on ramps? Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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