tr6 HHO the answer to better MPG ?

[Denis]

An Energy-Saving 'Boffin' neighbour of mine is in the process of fitting an HHO kit to his 'Eurobox' to save fuel.

 

He reckons by Oxygenating his induction he'll save between 20 to 50% on his mpg !

 

This got me to wondering wether adding more oxygen to my TR's induction would counterbalance my cars over rich mixture which is sooting up my Plugs causing misfiring? (Re my '5 Cylinder Woes' thread)

 

The entire HHO kit could be hidden from view in front of the radiator with the air-pipe fed straight into the airfilterbox.

 

What do the boffins amongst you reckon?

[RogerH]

Hi Denis,

it is hocus pocus. You need more energy to make it work than the energy it gives off.

 

Roger

[Denis]

Well it sure does produce Oxygen... even if it doesn't improve MPG...wouldn't it help sort-out my over-rich mixture?

Edited October 23, 2013 by Denis

[Nick Jones]

Hocus pocus as said. Can make a pretty impressive bang in the wrong place though.

 

Sorting the real reason for your rich mixture (butterfly balance, MU calibration, wrong tappet settings) will be much more beneficial and safer too.

 

Nick

Edited October 23, 2013 by Nick Jones

[peejay4A]

It doesn't just produce oxygen. Hydrogen is also produced as it's only electrolysing water. When it's burned in the combustion chamber the hydrogen will recombine with the oxygen leaving no excess oxygen to affect your over rich fuelling. Net gain, nowt. Actually as it's not 100% efficient your mpg will likely drop as Roger implies.

Edited October 23, 2013 by peejay4A

[Peter Cobbold]

Utter nonsense. There's no free energy lunches, except for the sellers.

No need to be technical. Does anyone really think the major auto manufacturers would go the extreme lengths they do to squeeze every last tenth of an mpg, if all they needed fit to was a kid's electrolysis kit?

Where's Trading Standards when we need them...

 

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/gas-mileage/4310717

Edited October 23, 2013 by Peter Cobbold

[Motorsport Mickey]

Gawd...I thought I'd heard all the pie in the sky,arty farty, poncy get more mpg from your gallon claims over the years, just goes to show.

 

When these claims are made it's always useful to remember the accumulated R&D budgets of the top technological car companies and wonder why they haven't discovered the same process, surely it would be to their benefit ? As Roger and others say don't waste your life even considering them.

 

Mick Richards

Edited October 23, 2013 by Motorsport Mickey

[Peter Cobbold]

There is one way a hydrogen oxygen mixture might improve consumption, by allowing rapid ignition of much leaner petrol mixtures.

But the HOH gas would have to be used locally around the spark plug, in a pierced prechamber to create flame jets to ignite the petrol mixture

 

Mahle are working on one that uses petrol injection into a plug prechamber:

http://www.mahle-powertrain.com/C1257126002DFC22/vwContentByKey/W28MC9UR841STULEN.

 

Lots more going on, search "prechamber spark plugs "

 

Peter

[RogerH]

Hi Pete,

can we fit a TJI to a 4A lump!!

 

Roger

[Andy Moltu]

I would have thought basic physics/chemistry would shoot this down. Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

 

The amount of energy required to split H2O into oxygen and hydrogen is equal to that released when the two combine to form H2O again.

 

Adding neat oxygen and hydrogen to the combustion mixture may well release more energy than burning fuel and air alone, however to regenerate hydrogen and oxygen from water will need at least as much energy, and as the system will be less than 100% efficient, you'll actually use more energy than you gain.

 

Some turbocharged engines used to inject water into the mixture to cool it and prevent detonation but a lot of that was a more about engineering difficulties in the early turbo years. Some of it also came from F1 where water was used notionally for turbo cooling and also for brake cooling. However it was a ruse to run a lighter car as the water tank could be refilled prior to weighing in. The water tank having been effectively emptied very quickly to shed excess weight as soon as the race started.

 

It's the folly of most hybrid petrol/electric cars - unless you charge the battery from a clean source of electricity such as hydroelectric or solar you are achieving nothing. As most drivers of hybrid cars use their engine to charge the battery the only potential gain is from energy recovery systems that recharge the battery under braking. However most of these hybrid abominations are so slow brakes are something of a novelty!

 

One day they may be better and one day we have "clean" electricity but in the UK that's a long way off.

[Peter Cobbold]

Hi Pete,

can we fit a TJI to a 4A lump!!

 

Roger

Roger, Yes - but it would be complicated with all that extra fuel supply to the plug. I'm not convinced the Mahle plug will work - think the petrol will soon gum up that tiny injector.

 

A 'corona discharge' type of plug looks closer to market - and that would fit TR engines and allow much leaner running. Could also get rid of the pinging on TR6s upon sudden throttle opening.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/3A3704B3FD9DDDCDCA257921002007FC

http://www.federalmogul.com/en-US/OE/markets/Pages/Product-Details.aspx?ApplicationId=47&CategoryId=2&ProductId=224#.UmlRuRAQOqo

 

 

We shall see...

Peter

Edited October 24, 2013 by Peter Cobbold

[Denis]

It's the folly of most hybrid petrol/electric cars - unless you charge the battery from a clean source of electricity such as hydroelectric or solar you are achieving nothing. As most drivers of hybrid cars use their engine to charge the battery the only potential gain is from energy recovery systems that recharge the battery under braking. However most of these hybrid abominations are so slow brakes are something of a novelty!

 

One day they may be better and one day we have "clean" electricity but in the UK that's a long way off.

Well my 'boffin' neighbour (who was the first to have Solar Panels on his house and other such devices in our area) also he drives a Toyota Prius (I referred to as a 'eurobox') and he claims 59 mpg from it... (my TR is doing about 13 mpg at the moment) Also if you've read my profile you'll know what my son races...and he likes his Hybrid racer and his Hybrid road car too!

[Guest ntc]

Andy

Quote It's the folly of most hybrid petrol/electric cars - unless you charge the battery from a clean source of electricity such as hydroelectric or solar you are achieving nothing. As most drivers of hybrid cars use their engine to charge the battery the only potential gain is from energy recovery systems that recharge the battery under braking. However most of these hybrid abominations are so slow brakes are something of a novelty!

 

Brakes do not apply do your homework

Edited October 25, 2013 by ntc

[Johncracknell]

... And just see how much it will cost to scrap a " battery " car when they are passed holding a charge, all those toxic waste problems -

[Guest ntc]

Tested 7000000 miles guaranteed for the lifetime of the car ( get that from haallfforsd ) And more value to recycle

Edit

Watch the next 24hrs Lemans

Edited October 24, 2013 by ntc

[Nick Jones]

Tested 7000000 miles guaranteed for the lifetime of the car ( get that from haallfforsd ) And more value to recycle

Edit

Watch the next 24hrs Lemans

 

But what is the guaranteed lifetime of the car?

My elderly Audi A6 (17 years so far) can still manage mid 50s mpg after 254,000 miles.

 

Pre-chamber plug is an interesting idea which seems mainly aimed at lighting up lean-burn natural gas/biogas engines.

 

I do have a set of these (from Russia) which are at part of the way to a pre-chamber design and spent some time in my Vitesse a few years ago. They certainly allowed some pretty lean running but upset the ECU I was running at the time due to their low resistance causing interferance. Have another ECU now and better leads so should try them again.

 

Nick

Edited October 24, 2013 by Nick Jones

[RogerH]

Hi John,

getting rid of the old battery (and the car) is no problem. Just leave it outside and the Rumanians and Bulgies will take it away for you.

 

Roger

[k_raven_smith]

Dennis please call me on 07977001571.neil

[Guest ntc]

Well my 'boffin' neighbour (who was the first to have Solar Panels on his house and other such devices in our area) also he drives a Toyota Prius (I referred to as a 'eurobox') and he claims 59 mpg from it... (my TR is doing about 13 mpg at the moment) Also if you've read my profile you'll know what my son races...and he likes his Hybrid racer and his Hybrid road car too!

Denis

I just read your profile good luck to the lad and ring Neil he will sort the 6

[Guest ntc]

Just to make the point,next years spec for F1 engines

300klm race length

100 lts of fuel

160 hp instead of 80 with Kers

5 engines only

[littlejim]

The gas to use is nitrous oxide. You can get a larf from it too.

[Andy Moltu]

Andy

Quote It's the folly of most hybrid petrol/electric cars - unless you charge the battery from a clean source of electricity such as hydroelectric or solar you are achieving nothing. As most drivers of hybrid cars use their engine to charge the battery the only potential gain is from energy recovery systems that recharge the battery under braking. However most of these hybrid abominations are so slow brakes are something of a novelty!

 

Brakes do not apply do your homework

 

So you are saying that none of these hybrid cars have brakes? Is the regenerative process able to do an emergency stop at speed? AFIK they still do have brakes.

Or are you saying that the we are now not to refer to applying decellerative force as braking?

 

I very much doubt that many hybrid cars in the UK are regularly re-charged from clean generated electricity. As such many are simply expensive, small engined cars that probably don't deliver the economy they aspire to.

I have no intrinsic objections to the hybrid car but to make them anything other than pseudo-green in the UK they need improving and our electricity generation needs to move away from fossil fuels and their owners would need to charge them externally rather than using the petrol engine as a battery charger.

Edited October 25, 2013 by andymoltu

[Guest ntc]

Brake discs and pads last twice as long,have a read on how to drive them, http://www.lexus.co.uk/owners/reference-library/#/HybridDrivingTips

[Andy Moltu]

Brake discs and pads last twice as long,have a read on how to drive them, http://www.lexus.co.uk/owners/reference-library/#/HybridDrivingTips

 

 

You said brakes don't apply.

If they didn't have brakes how can the pads last twice as long?

[Peter Cobbold]

I have no intrinsic objections to the hybrid car but to make them anything other than pseudo-green in the UK they need improving and our electricity generation needs to move away from fossil fuels and their owners would need to charge them externally rather than using the petrol engine as a battery charger.

[/quote

 

The numbers and cost of the green power needed are daunting. If all 20million electric cars average 1 hour/30miles per day and are Nissan Leaf size we can estimate the power needed. I hour at say 20hp is 15kWh ( 15 'units' ). So to recharge them at night the grid has to supply, for 12 hours, power at (20million x 15)/12 kW. Thats 25GW. The green contribution to the grid at present is about 4GW. So there's a long way to go. About 7 new nuclear plants the size of Hinkcley C will do it. Total cost at least £100 billion. Or £5000 per Leaf.

There are more local issues. If we want to recharge the battery in an hour then the power needed is 15kW, about the same as a house uses at peak time.So local grid capacities will have to be doubled. But if everyone tries to fill up between 6 and 7pm the power stations would have to be 12 times more powerful! If battery cars take off, we can expect rationing of power by either rate (kW) or time of day. There's lots of research going on to speed up battery recharging, but the grid will remain the weakest point.

My guess is green electricity wont be used to recharge batteries. The the technology that wins in the end will making hydrogen or ammonia easy and safe to handle, distribute and store. And fuel cells in the cars.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Peter Cobbold