PCV

[JJC]

Any knowledgeable views on replacing the PCV system (at some expense as my valve and connections have got lost) or simply connecting the rocker cover vent to the air filters input side via a bodge as per early 4s? JJC

[ChrisR-4A]

Hi, the best and easiest solution is to run a pipe from the rocker cover over the top of the carbs and down past the chassis rail with a tie wrap to hold it in place. My 4A has run like this for 11 years with no problems, in fact if you want to provide even more venting to the engine then why not remove the core plug down by the fuel pump and fit the crankcase breather pipe as per the TR4. My car also has this mod and has passed 11 MOTS with no comments. Used samples of TR4 crankcase breather pipes are normally available used from the usual sources at a very reasonable cost. I would give the venting through the air filters a miss as although this may work fine on a newish motor it can play havoc with the moxture settings on an old engine.

Chris

[peter clarke]

I agree 100%. Before I rebuilt my 4a motor it leaked via the rear crank seal (among other places). Fitting the free vent to the block stopped that one and I have kept the same vent system since the rebuild.

[graeme]

Chris,

 

Is it possible to remove the core plug with the engine in situ? I want to carry out this mod to relieve the pressure in the engine.

 

Thanks

 

Graeme

[Badfrog]

Hi,

 

This may be one of the most vicious topics ever. Starting from origins, we have the TR4: The rocker cover has a well ventilated "mushroom" cap and down there is a breather pipe, highly non-PC polluting device, which does not allow you to monitor blow-by, just because its blows underneath the car, spits on the road and you don't see it. In opposition to previous respectable opinions stated by distinguished members of the forum, I would not recommend it. OK for MOT, non-OK for mother Nature.

However, it's working very well, so I will resort to this only if all else fails (highly hypocritical disclaimer).

 

Then we have the TR4A, "almost closed" cap plus an upper breather niftily designed to look bad and gunk valves, and which very often clogs itself so it does not really function. Sending the vapours into the carbs filters will do the same thing, plus clog the carbs. No lower breathing.

 

None of this is really satisfying when driving fast. Then what?

 

Then we embark in oil catcher tank considerations. Problems begin.

Major rule: you need a big one. Small ones will not let the blow-by pressure off fast enough and you'll get no result. Buy a 2 pints, or if you want to follow FIA rules, a 4 pints tank.

 

Upper level is a cinch: link a rubber pipe from rocker cover outlet to the tank (Mocal or any other brand), goes for 4 and 4A. For TR4, get a cover with outlet or make one.

Now, TR4 lower inferno: remove the lower breather and install a short metal pipe in lieu. Then a rubber pipe up to the tank. Adding an anti-return valve is a good idea.Easy way off: install the rubber pipe at the end of the breather tube.

 

TR4A: Remove the stupid upper gizmo to link the rocker cover to the tank ... or don't, up to you.

Lower inferno: no breather, so either you unplug the location and install a piece of pipe or you mount an electric fuel pump, remove the mechanical pump and install the breathing outlet here. That's what I did ...but:

It's OK up to 3500 rpm, but I noticed coming back from Malvern that most of my oil went on the rear valance on a steady 4500 rpm between Swindon and Paris. I am currently working on this. Two explanations:

 

1) I know my oil catcher tank is too small (1 pint) and restricts breathing.

2) I also believe that the oil way designed to lubricate the camshaft and fuel pump lever together is blowing 70 Lb/ft pressured oil right into my makeshift lower breathing device. This oil is blown-up into the tank, tank fills up and overflows.

 

So, I will now install a larger tank plus some interfering device in the lower system and test. Stay tuned for results.

 

Badfrog, it's not pussy-footin', rather TIOC: Triumph improvement obsessive compulsion.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2010 by Badfrog

[JJC]

Thanks for the replies. Supports my memory from years ago when PCV came in, eventually will cause difficulty with tuning. It seems as though venting at the rocker cover shouldn't be any different in pressure terms from venting the crankcase so maybe that's the way to go. A catch tank would be the responsible thing to do. JJC

[Steve Priest]

On a related note, I have an oil leak from somewhere around the crank case breather. Not 100% sure it it's the breather or the fuel pump (or knowing my car - both). From the drawings it looks like the breaker pipe is a push fit. At the moment it's sealed with some kind of white sealant. Anyone know the best way to fit and seal it?

 

Cheers,

Steve

[Guest ntc]

Hi,

 

This may be one of the most vicious topics ever. Starting from origins, we have the TR4: The rocker cover has a well ventilated "mushroom" cap and down there is a breather pipe, highly non-PC polluting device, which does not allow you to monitor blow-by, just because its blows underneath the car, spits on the road and you don't see it. In opposition to previous respectable opinions stated by distinguished members of the forum, I would not recommend it. OK for MOT, non-OK for mother Nature.

However, it's working very well, so I will resort to this only if all else fails (highly hypocritical disclaimer).

 

Then we have the TR4A, "almost closed" cap plus an upper breather niftily designed to look bad and gunk valves, and which very often clogs itself so it does not really function. Sending the vapours into the carbs filters will do the same thing, plus clog the carbs. No lower breathing.

 

None of this is really satisfying when driving fast. Then what?

 

Then we embark in oil catcher tank considerations. Problems begin.

Major rule: you need a big one. Small ones will not let the blow-by pressure off fast enough and you'll get no result. Buy a 2 pints, or if you want to follow FIA rules, a 4 pints tank.

 

Upper level is a cinch: link a rubber pipe from rocker cover outlet to the tank (Mocal or any other brand), goes for 4 and 4A. For TR4, get a cover with outlet or make one.

Now, TR4 lower inferno: remove the lower breather and install a short metal pipe in lieu. Then a rubber pipe up to the tank. Adding an anti-return valve is a good idea.Easy way off: install the rubber pipe at the end of the breather tube.

 

TR4A: Remove the stupid upper gizmo to link the rocker cover to the tank ... or don't, up to you.

Lower inferno: no breather, so either you unplug the location and install a piece of pipe or you mount an electric fuel pump, remove the mechanical pump and install the breathing outlet here. That's what I did ...but:

It's OK up to 3500 rpm, but I noticed coming back from Malvern that most of my oil went on the rear valance on a steady 4500 rpm between Swindon and Paris. I am currently working on this. Two explanations:

 

1) I know my oil catcher tank is too small (1 pint) and restricts breathing.

2) I also believe that the oil way designed to lubricate the camshaft and fuel pump lever together is blowing 70 Lb/ft pressured oil right into my makeshift lower breathing device. This oil is blown-up into the tank, tank fills up and overflows.

 

So, I will now install a larger tank plus some interfering device in the lower system and test. Stay tuned for results.

 

Badfrog, it's not pussy-footin', rather TIOC: Triumph improvement obsessive compulsion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

How much oil did you use Badfrog?

[johnny250]

 

1) I know my oil catcher tank is too small (1 pint) and restricts breathing.

2) I also believe that the oil way designed to lubricate the camshaft and fuel pump lever together is blowing 70 Lb/ft pressured oil right into my makeshift lower breathing device. This oil is blown-up into the tank, tank fills up and overflows.

 

 

 

I notice that the Revington catch tank/separator uses the (ex.petrol pump location) crankcase pipe, as a RETURN for captured oil from the tank..... don't quite see how that works if there is that much pressure there?

 

john

[Rhodri]

John - If you think about it, oil from the valve gear drips back down into the sump without problems. I think that the difference is that the liquid oil returning is much more dense than the oil mist that is blown out of the breathers, so is not affected by any back pressure.

 

Rod

[Badfrog]

How much oil did you use Badfrog?

 

 

Do you mean for the Paris-Malvern trip, to and fro?

 

0.75 L, most of it on the night return (Calais-Paris) done at ludicrous speed.

 

Badfrog

[Badfrog]

I notice that the Revington catch tank/separator uses the (ex.petrol pump location) crankcase pipe, as a RETURN for captured oil from the tank..... don't quite see how that works if there is that much pressure there?

john

 

 

 

Good point. Beats me. May be the fact that the Revington gizmo has a separating system inside is the reason? It is also quite bigger : 3 liters. This may be enough to neutralize the pressure and let oil return without being pushed back. Or Revington may have added a deflective steel plate....

 

My oil catch tank is just a 500 cm3 can with 2 inlets and a mushroom cap outlet, no separating device. I just ordered a Mocal 1L tank with a separating device. I'll try to do some pressure measures and think of an explanation.

 

Cheers,

 

Badfrog

Edited August 2, 2010 by Badfrog

[Alec Pringle]

You can't complain about the oil consumption, Badfrog, we know from your telephoned progress reports en route just how well you were clogging Lady Anne along the autoroute and motorway . . . . she's entitled to feel thirsty after a good thrashing

 

Bullnose Badfrog, in training for the Yorkshire clog dance . . . .

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[TR 2100]

Hi,

 

This may be one of the most vicious topics ever. Starting from origins, we have the TR4: The rocker cover has a well ventilated "mushroom" cap and down there is a breather pipe, highly non-PC polluting device, which does not allow you to monitor blow-by, just because its blows underneath the car, spits on the road and you don't see it. In opposition to previous respectable opinions stated by distinguished members of the forum, I would not recommend it. OK for MOT, non-OK for mother Nature.

However, it's working very well, so I will resort to this only if all else fails (highly hypocritical disclaimer).

 

Then we have the TR4A, "almost closed" cap plus an upper breather niftily designed to look bad and gunk valves, and which very often clogs itself so it does not really function. Sending the vapours into the carbs filters will do the same thing, plus clog the carbs. No lower breathing.

 

None of this is really satisfying when driving fast. Then what?

 

Then we embark in oil catcher tank considerations. Problems begin.

Major rule: you need a big one. Small ones will not let the blow-by pressure off fast enough and you'll get no result. Buy a 2 pints, or if you want to follow FIA rules, a 4 pints tank.

 

Upper level is a cinch: link a rubber pipe from rocker cover outlet to the tank (Mocal or any other brand), goes for 4 and 4A. For TR4, get a cover with outlet or make one.

Now, TR4 lower inferno: remove the lower breather and install a short metal pipe in lieu. Then a rubber pipe up to the tank. Adding an anti-return valve is a good idea.Easy way off: install the rubber pipe at the end of the breather tube.

 

TR4A: Remove the stupid upper gizmo to link the rocker cover to the tank ... or don't, up to you.

Lower inferno: no breather, so either you unplug the location and install a piece of pipe or you mount an electric fuel pump, remove the mechanical pump and install the breathing outlet here. That's what I did ...but:

It's OK up to 3500 rpm, but I noticed coming back from Malvern that most of my oil went on the rear valance on a steady 4500 rpm between Swindon and Paris. I am currently working on this. Two explanations:

 

1) I know my oil catcher tank is too small (1 pint) and restricts breathing.

2) I also believe that the oil way designed to lubricate the camshaft and fuel pump lever together is blowing 70 Lb/ft pressured oil right into my makeshift lower breathing device. This oil is blown-up into the tank, tank fills up and overflows.

 

So, I will now install a larger tank plus some interfering device in the lower system and test. Stay tuned for results.

 

Badfrog, it's not pussy-footin', rather TIOC: Triumph improvement obsessive compulsion.

 

 

An impressive list.

 

Will you be working on noise pollution for next year ? !

 

AlanR

[Badfrog]

An impressive list.

Will you be working on noise pollution for next year ? !

AlanR

 

 

Yes, Alan,

 

I will learn how to use "once-only" kleenexes when blowing me nose rather than L. A.'s oil check rag.

Er .... noise, not nose.... mmmm ... , were you by any chance hinting at my snoring in Malvern?

I will consider stainless steel sinuses from Phoenix, although a shiny double 2" nose might be a bit "in my face" .

 

Cheers,

 

Badfrog

Edited August 2, 2010 by Badfrog

[JJC]

Having now got to the point where I'm going down the direct venting route, I now need to blank off the hole in the manifold where the PCV valve would have connected. Does anyone know size and thread? JJC

[PaulAnderson]

 

Then we have the TR4A, "almost closed" cap plus an upper breather niftily designed to look bad and gunk valves, and which very often clogs itself so it does not really function. Sending the vapours into the carbs filters will do the same thing, plus clog the carbs. No lower breathing.

 

TR4A: Remove the stupid upper gizmo to link the rocker cover to the tank ... or don't, up to you.

Lower inferno: no breather, so either you unplug the location and install a piece of pipe or you mount an electric fuel pump, remove the mechanical pump and install the breathing outlet here.

 

 

So, how does one know there is a problem your PCV system as most cars will still use the standard set up?

And what do you mean by unplug the location and install a piece of pipe?

I took the lid off my valve tonight out of interest and there was a little smear of oil within the valve but no clogging that I could see. The car runs pretty much okay but there's not quite as much power as I remember from last year. I've refurbished carbs (though not in the last year) with changed jets for K&N's with integral stub stacks, and electronic ignition.

 

I see Racestorations sell a 'Closed Engine Breather Kit', Quiller Triumph sell stainless oil catch tanks and i'm sure there's more available elsewhere.

[Badfrog]

1) So, how does one know there is a problem your PCV system as most cars will still use the standard set up?

2) And what do you mean by unplug the location and install a piece of pipe?

3) I took the lid off my valve tonight out of interest and there was a little smear of oil within the valve but no clogging that I could see. The car runs pretty much okay but there's not quite as much power as I remember from last year. I've refurbished carbs (though not in the last year) with changed jets for K&N's with integral stub stacks, and electronic ignition.

4) I see Racetorations sell a 'Closed Engine Breather Kit', Quiller Triumph sell stainless oil catch tanks and i'm sure there's more available elsewhere.

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Well, many questions.

1) and 3) The 4A PCV valve should be checked yearly for cleanliness and horizontal positioning of the cup. Finding some oil is normal there, shows it works and sends oil on to the valves. Excellent for for coke formation. Unfortunately, you can't decoke the head and valves as easily as in an Austin seven.

Besides, it is designed to form a leak in the manifold depression, not a very good thing.

 

Above all, it is ugly plus I need the vacuum inlet for my hydrovac brake system.

 

2) 4's and 4A's have the same block. The oil breather in the 4A is removed and the hole is plugged. If you want to install a breather or make your own contraption, you should unplug the aperture and either insert the original breather or a length of pipe with the right dimensions to hook the rubber tube on. Then route this rubber tube to the oil catch tank.

 

3 again) I am now a member of the no-electronics brigade. See the Malvern IWE thread for full explanation. Which needles are you using?

I also don't like KN filters. Either the original washable wire mesh ones or long velocity stacks with Piper stocks.

 

4) Everybody has their own model of oil catch tank. I'm trying the 1L MOCAL now. Demon Tweeks is another source. Revington has the ultimate thing: closed circuit, 3L capacity, oil separating device in the can and return to the engine through the fuel pump aperture (pump removed and changed for electric pump above rear axle). Very expensive, three different kinds, none adaptable to LHD cars without removing the bonnet lock. No surprise with a 3L can. Could someone tell me where else to fit that mass in my car engine bay, thank you very much?

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

 

Badfrog

[TR NIALL]

Hi Paul,

 

Well, many questions.

1) and 3) The 4A PCV valve should be checked yearly for cleanliness and horizontal positioning of the cup. Finding some oil is normal there, shows it works and sends oil on to the valves. Excellent for for coke formation. Unfortunately, you can't decoke the head and valves as easily as in an Austin seven.

Besides, it is designed to form a leak in the manifold depression, not a very good thing.

 

Above all, it is ugly plus I need the vacuum inlet for my hydrovac brake system.

 

2) 4's and 4A's have the same block. The oil breather in the 4A is removed and the hole is plugged. If you want to install a breather or make your own contraption, you should unplug the aperture and either insert the original breather or a length of pipe with the right dimensions to hook the rubber tube on. Then route this rubber tube to the oil catch tank.

 

3 again) I am now a member of the no-electronics brigade. See the Malvern IWE thread for full explanation. Which needles are you using?

I also don't like KN filters. Either the original washable wire mesh ones or long velocity stacks with Piper stocks.

 

4) Everybody has their own model of oil catch tank. I'm trying the 1L MOCAL now. Demon Tweeks is another source. Revington has the ultimate thing: closed circuit, 3L capacity, oil separating device in the can and return to the engine through the fuel pump aperture (pump removed and changed for electric pump above rear axle). Very expensive, three different kinds, none adaptable to LHD cars without removing the bonnet lock. No surprise with a 3L can. Could someone tell me where else to fit that mass in my car engine bay, thank you very much?

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

 

Badfrog

 

Battery to boot/trunk you will have loads of room.

[Badfrog]

Battery to boot/trunk you will have loads of room.

 

 

 

Right, good idea, but where do I stash the beer?

 

Badfrog

[stuart]

Right, good idea, but where do I stash the beer?

 

Badfrog

 

Do like the works cars have for a tool box and convert one of the side panels in the boot into a battery box.

Stuart.

[Badfrog]

Great idea.

 

I'll get me torch....

 

Badfrog