Trumpy Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 I fitted an oil cooler a while back (Tr5) and after the car has been stood a while I noticed the oil pressure just takes a second to register on start up . Anyone know if there anything can be fitted to prevent oil syphoning from the system. I have a spin on filter fitted , no external leaks visible. The cooler system was bought as a kit from Rimmer , neither Rimmer or Moss appear to offer a filter with an anti return valve ! Or maybe it’s nothing to worry about ! Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 Hi Dave, Not quite what you were thinking of but how about this https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/accusump-oil-pressure-accumulator-2-pint-m-accu5a You could also make your own from a disposable MIG gas cylinder. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 Do you mean a second longer than normal or just a second? Don't think I've ever had a Triumph that showed oil pressure within a second! Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 36 minutes ago, jerrytr5 said: Do you mean a second longer than normal or just a second? Don't think I've ever had a Triumph that showed oil pressure within a second! Jerry Does it rattle or rumble when it starts up? As the oil cooler kit is fitted with a spin on would an oil filter with anti drain valve help? We assume the filter is mounted down ward so the oil would have to climb out to drain away. Also assuming the pipe work and cooler radiator are as low as possible and not looped up above the filter. The spin on kit is a great improvement over the standard system where the oil could drain directly back into the block. It was in fact sold as a 'stop the start up rattle' modification for the 6 cylinder Triumph engine. Next is copy of PRACTICAL CLASSICS 1986 article on the spin on kit. Edited February 13 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 Reprinted by kind permission of PRACTICAL CLASSICS 1986 Knock-on effect The Triumph six-cylinder engine is its own biggest enemy. Through design it has a serious oil-pressure delay when first started in the morning, and this momentary lack of Lubrication is very destructive to the engine's bottom end. Fortunately, the cure is easier than you might think — as easy as changing the ol filter. While we don't consider the designer's under-estimation of crankshaft support irrelevant, it is the oil-pressure delay in the morning, not the thrust-bearing surface area, which is the most glaring fault in the Triumph six-cylinder engine. Accompanied by big-end knock, it's not unknown for the oil light to remain on for three or four seconds after the initial start; thereafter things are fine. Irritating and hardly conducive to engine longevity. Bottom-end bearing wear, excessive crankshaft endfloat and/or a worn oil pump all obvioulsy take their toll as far as the ultimate oil pressure is concerned, but in this case they are not the root of the trouble. No, the main problem is the type of oil filter used and how it's fitted to the cylinder block. Being a cartridge design and mounted horizontally, the oil has no option other than slowly draining back into the slump overnight. Thus, the time taken for the oil light to extinguish, give or take the odd millisecond of natural lag, is directly proportional to how long it takes the oil pump to re-prime the filter. White-haired readers may recall Fram offering a filter conversion when the 2000/2500 Saloons were at their most popular; it allowed a screw-on canister filter to be fitted in place of the standard cartridge type. We know not where this eventually ended up, but would imagine it was the design upon which Triumphtune (UK) Ltd based their oil filter adaptor kit. History aside, the Triumphtune conversion consists of an angled alloy machining which is installed in place of the cartridge filter. Once done, the housing can be rotated prior to fully tightening the securing bolt to allow the new screw-on canister to be sympathetically positioned - governed by such things as the fuel pump (directly above the filter), the bulkhead (to the right) and the engine's relief valve assembly (to the left. The replacement filter is necessarily stubby to accommodate various locations. Two types are available, one for standard engines and the other for oil-cooler-equipped vehicles. It's important to stipulate which as they re not interchangeable. Further details from Triumphtune (UK) Ltd, Manor Road, Richmond, Surrey. Telephone 01-948 6668. "Verdict" The adaptor kit is simplicity itself to fit, taking less time than it would to renew the element in the old design. Likewise, screwing on the canister is no hardship, and it could even be argued that it will make future servicing easier. A problem did come to light on our car, though, and we would imagine the same hurdle would also be there on the Vitesse; namely that the replacement filter has to be positioned virtually horizontal for the necessary clearance - far from optimum. When fitted, our pressure lag disappeared for good. In summary, this conversion is a must for anyone with a Triumph six-cylinder engine under the bonnet, but choose your new filter with care if you drive either a Six or Vitesse. Reprinted by kind permission of PRACTICAL CLASSICS 1986 2-7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 3 hours ago, RogerH said: Hi Dave, Not quite what you were thinking of but how about this https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/accusump-oil-pressure-accumulator-2-pint-m-accu5a You could also make your own from a disposable MIG gas cylinder. Roger I made one of these from an old MIG cylinder to deal with this issue on my TR3a but the gauge that I used wasn't up to the job and after only a few months it sprang a leak depositing a steady trail of oil along the road. I replaced the gauge but the same thing happened so I removed the whole thing. It had only cost peanuts to make anyway, the trickiest part was fabricating a connector that screwed into one of the oil gallery holes in the block and would accept standard airline fittings. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 Hi Ian, did it need a gauge ? Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, RogerH said: Hi Ian, did it need a gauge ? Roger No, but I fancied the idea of one. I appreciate that I could have removed the gauge and solved the problem but I had second thoughts and decided it was just one more thing to go wrong so I ditched it. I have since used the wiring I installed for a separate purpose and goodness knows where I have put the various unions and connectors - somewhere in the garage. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trumpy Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 Thanks for the replies and information. I hadn’t realised the 6cyl triumph motor had problems with oil pressure lag on start up . It makes sense with the original filter bowl assembly as the oil can drain back, but not with the spin on type . I converted the filter to spin on type soon after acquiring the car , I can’t recall a delay before then but certainly with the spin on conversion it was virtually instant . I’ve just started the car now and at tickover timed exactly 2seconds before the light went out which from the comments above sounds reasonable. ( no rumbles ) . I could give the engine a longer spin on the starter as I have an immobiliser on the pump . As the oil cooler is below the filter housing I can’t see how oil can drain back anyway tbf , it just seemed strange that fitting the cooler seems to have caused the delay . Perhaps I need to find something else to worry about Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim D. Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 I have an oil cooler in mine with spinon . Definitely takes less time to come up to pressure than my 2500TC saloon which also had the startup rattle until I went with a spin on. Whether in my tr6 it is slower than when it just had the spin on and no oil cooler is not clear. But remember, when cool the thermostat is closed so in theory the max extra priming is the loop of pipe to the cooler and back. Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 Make sure the filter has an anti-drain back valve otherwise the oil can still drain back to the sump. Not all filter cartridges have this. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PodOne Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 Hi Waldi Which ones do? Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trumpy Posted February 14 Author Report Share Posted February 14 4 hours ago, Waldi said: Make sure the filter has an anti-drain back valve otherwise the oil can still drain back to the sump. Not all filter cartridges have this. Waldi I Can’t find any filters with a valve but the spin on filter sits below the housing so I can’t see a need ? Or can it syphon back ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trumpy Posted February 14 Author Report Share Posted February 14 7 hours ago, Tim D. said: I have an oil cooler in mine with spinon . Definitely takes less time to come up to pressure than my 2500TC saloon which also had the startup rattle until I went with a spin on. Whether in my tr6 it is slower than when it just had the spin on and no oil cooler is not clear. But remember, when cool the thermostat is closed so in theory the max extra priming is the loop of pipe to the cooler and back. Tim Ah , I don’t have a thermostat on my cooler so the pump has to pressurise the whole system on start up . Maybe that would be a worthwhile addition! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 The thermostat would be a good idea - mainly to stop over cooling but also the delay. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 (edited) 21 minutes ago, RogerH said: The thermostat would be a good idea - mainly to stop over cooling but also the delay. Roger Could always fit a BL Special Tuning. C-AHT181. Oil cooler radiator cover. Bryan Purves offers them at £25. They were about 30 bob and a thermostat was nearer a tenner. No contest! There is probably one in my lock up somewhere from the cheap old days. The other way was wrap tin foil round the radiator. Edited February 14 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 31 minutes ago, Trumpy said: Or can it syphon back ? That’s what I suspect. I have a K&N HP2009. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trumpy Posted February 15 Author Report Share Posted February 15 13 hours ago, Waldi said: That’s what I suspect. I have a K&N HP2009. Waldi thanks Waldi , can you confirm this filter fits the Tr spin on housing ? . The spec doesn’t seem to mention an anti syphon valve tho’ but It’s about time for an annual (1k miles) oil change so I’ll try a K&N . A thermostat seems a sensible addition as well and I think Rimmer’s have a Triumph sale on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim D. Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 16 hours ago, Trumpy said: Ah , I don’t have a thermostat on my cooler so the pump has to pressurise the whole system on start up . Maybe that would be a worthwhile addition! I would definitely add a thermostat. Otherwise you will risk overcooling the oil. As an observation, On my car I can tell when the thermostat opens as the oil pressure rises slightly before dropping back as the cold oil from the rad enters the system. This means I have a good idea of when the oil rad is in use. My observation is that in the summer after about 15-20 mins the thermostat opens and stays open all the time indicating that the oil reachers >82 oC in 15-20 mins. On a cold autumn/winter day the thermostat actually cycles, opening and closing every 5 or so mins. at temps below 5oC ambient the termostat doesn't open. This suggests that TR6 oil temp exceeds 82oC in most conidtions. Without a thermostat you may be ok in warm weather with just a delay in oil warming time. But at lower temps you do risk over-cooling the oil. Cheers tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 5 hours ago, Trumpy said: , can you confirm this filter fits the Tr spin on housing ? Yes they do. Mine came from Moss-UK. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 I have the spin-on filter conversions on both of my TR250s since the 1900s and don't remember the pressure time lag prior but neither suffers from this issue. One has a cooler and the other doesn't, and the former has a thermostat which may be the key to Trumpy's query as it provides a " normally closed " condition, only opening briefly for a few seconds ( where the pressure drops about 20 psi ) with ~ 30 seconds or more between cycles when cruising at 80 mph. This motor has 142,000 miles since its last rebuild and apart from using less than 1 US qt. of oil in 3000 miles ( since break-in, say 10,000 miles ) it registers 65 psi @ 2000 rpm when hot as it ever gets. I'm not sure how an un-stat'd cooler setup would drain down anyway as noted above; it's below the filter housing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DRD Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 On 2/14/2024 at 3:33 PM, PodOne said: Hi Waldi Which ones do? Andy Most of them do these days, certainly the K&N, Mann, Wix and Mahle ones do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ralph Whitaker Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 On 2/12/2024 at 9:12 PM, Trumpy said: I fitted an oil cooler a while back (Tr5) and after the car has been stood a while I noticed the oil pressure just takes a second to register on start up . Anyone know if there anything can be fitted to prevent oil syphoning from the system. I have a spin on filter fitted , no external leaks visible. The cooler system was bought as a kit from Rimmer , neither Rimmer or Moss appear to offer a filter with an anti return valve ! Or maybe it’s nothing to worry about ! Dave Could it be to do with the pipe runs?. Just thinking that if the pipes loop up to the oil cooler, maybe the oil drains back out of the pipes when standing, especially with no in line thermostat. Ralph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trumpy Posted February 17 Author Report Share Posted February 17 12 hours ago, Ralph Whitaker said: Could it be to do with the pipe runs?. Just thinking that if the pipes loop up to the oil cooler, maybe the oil drains back out of the pipes when standing, especially with no in line thermostat. Ralph The pipes run side by side down to the cooler (entering from the top) which is fitted in the standard place on the front cross plate under the rad . everything is below the filter but I think oil could still potentially syphon back through the pump and pickup pipe into the sump unless of course the filter has an anti return valve . I’m going to try a different filter with a valve to see if that helps , if not I’ll try a thermostat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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