On-going cut-out problem 2

[Ernest]

Hi all

Coming again at my on-going cut-out problem. Happened again today just 2 miles from home and would not start within 2 hours, but went back this evening (5 hrs later)

and it started fine. Got to top of my 'drive' (or rather the one car deep concrete strip in front of the house) and cut out again - but at least its home.

I have replaced coil, rotor arm, checked the petrol flow, and electrical connections. 

Am now thinking it might be an issue with the Lumination electronic ignition.

Am getting quite frustrated - any further ideas?

Ernest

  

[barkerwilliams]

Could I suggest you carry a can of easy-start with you. I wonderful diagnostic if the engine cuts out, a blast into the air intake and when attempting to start there should be a couple (at least) of cylinders fire if the problem is fuel related, and at the same time confirming the ignition is OK. Failure to fire at least one cylinder would point to ignition related issues.

If ignition related - If you have a timing light, particularly the type with battery leads and a bright flash, fitting inline and positioning so you can see from near the ignition key will confirm the ignition is producing a spark when cranked. 

If fuel related and the car is  a PI? If so carry a modern style fuse (any value above 15 amp) and if the problem occurs disconnect the impact cut-out switch and couple both wires 6.3mm spade connectors to the fuse thus shorting it out. (Shorting the cut-out wires is no problem as that is what the cut out does in operation sending the 12v to the fuel pump.) The cut-out contact can go high resistance and send a limited voltage to the pump which can run at a reduced speed and fail to develop adequate fuel pressure.

To do those three things would take less than two minutes and should give you a pointer to ignition or fuel problems.

If fuel related and not a P II would suspect debris in fuel tank outlet and or filter. If you have only one carburettor on the car possible a sticking needle valve.

If ignition related, have you checked that the source of the power to the Lumination is a "proper" connection not just piggy backed onto another circuit together with a good earth, the earth is not usually checked!!!

It would not take much to connect a wire (with fuse) from the battery directly to the Lumination to bypass any car wiring. Do I also recall correctly that Lumination ignitions have a three wire connector between the distributor and control box which occasionally give problems? (or is that on the Triumph Stag?)

Alan

[Mk2 Chopper]

It would be worth fitting points and condensor as a test.

But have you checked for a spark when it won't start? The two checks you need to do when it stops is seeing if you have a spark and if you do, do you have a nice cone spray from the injectors.

These tests will determine which area has the issue. You need to logically work through the issue when it happens. 

Gareth

[Ernest]

 

Thanks for taking the trouble to offer further advice - It does seem that I need to do more at the actual time of cut-out to determine if a spark etc.

I can't see that it would be fuel - not least because the RAC did check this some time ago when this cut-out first occurred.

Also, the cut-out just happens, no warning at all and I would have expected at least some, if short, lead up to the cut-out if it was due to fuel

I was think that there might be some sort of 'control' unit within the Lumination system that might be failing as the car warms up.

Thanks again

Ernest

[Mike C]

If the plugs are wet after a failed restart the problem is electrical. Could be something simple like a dry joint in your ignition that's ceasing to conduct when it gets hot.

[Mk2 Chopper]

Fuel can be electrical too as there is the pump, but I would expect it to be obvious that it stopped by no longer hearing it. 

I do feel you need to just check what's changed at the time of the fault, by seeing if there is a spark and then fuel spray from the injectors if there was a spark. If for example there was no spark, that would be the time to check the power at the coil, the cap/ rotor arm condition and then swapping back to points and condensor. All these ignition parts can be changed at the road side one at a time to see what happens. 

Gareth

[Z320]

I remember you have already been advised at your other post to swap back to points and condenser!

Why don’t you do what you have been advised, „please“?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Z320

[Ernest]

Hi

Thanks for further advise. 

Z320 I simply don't know how to change back to points and condenser.

Best Wishes

Ernest

[Z320]

OK.

You ask for help but can’t help yourself?

[DRD]

32 minutes ago, Ernest said:

Hi

Thanks for further advise. 

Z320 I simply don't know how to change back to points and condenser.

Best Wishes

Ernest

It's not difficult, just look on u-tube or search the internet.

[RobH]

If it really is a problem for you Ernest, then why not fit a new Lumenition system?  If it doesn't cure the fault at least you will then have a spare.....

[Mk2 Chopper]

Do you have a local TR Register group that you can get help with? I'm sure you'll find they will be more than willing to help out a fellow member. 

Gareth

[Paul Hill]

2 hours ago, Ernest said:

Hi

Thanks for further advise. 

Z320 I simply don't know how to change back to points and condenser.

Best Wishes

Ernest

It might help if you share where you are in the UK 

[RobH]

19 minutes ago, Mk2 Chopper said:

Do you have a local TR Register group that you can get help with? I'm sure you'll find they will be more than willing to help out a fellow member. 

 

4 minutes ago, Paul Hill said:

It might help if you share where you are in the UK

 

Both points were raised  and answered in Ernest's earlier thread on this fault. 

[Steve-B]

2 hours ago, Ernest said:

Hi

Thanks for further advise. 

Z320 I simply don't know how to change back to points and condenser.

Best Wishes

Ernest

Hi @Ernest,

There's loads of very helpful advice here, and I recall on your other thread it has been shared however it is unclear if you've actioned any of those?

Would you let us know what you've already tried so we have a basis to assist your ask please? Having been through similar, this is a path that you may have to try several things, in some order, to get to the ultimate fault.

PS> Your local TR group (don't know where you're based??) is also a wealth of knowledge.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Steve-B

[Ernest]

Hi all

Thanks for your advice - Not sure what you are on about z320? I have tried most of the recommendations that I could do (coil, rotor arm, petrol pump and cut-off, and checked ignition-related wiring.

But I do not know how to change the condenser/points and I would not what to do this unless I was fairly confident that such a change would sort the problem -

What would changing to condenser/point actual do - I had thought that electronic ignition was an upgrade on this in terms of reliability.

Is there not an easier way to see if the E.I. is not working properly?

If not, and the general view is that I need to try condenser/points then I will access u/tube as suggested and try the conversion.

Thanks again 

Ernest

 

 

[roy53]

Do you have a reason for not giving your location so that a member could help ????

E I is not fool proof. For you it may be easier as Rob H says to do a straight swap with the same lumenition

[RobH]

2 minutes ago, Ernest said:

I had thought that electronic ignition was an upgrade on this in terms of reliability.

Not reliability really.  As I explained right at the beginning of your first thread (of three) on this fault, and others have also said, electronic ignition is not immune to failure though it is rare.   Points are probably equally reliable if kept in proper adjustment. 

In this case the fault may be related to heat, since the engine starts if given time to cool down.   One of the few things which can be affected by heat in this way is electronics, which is why so many people have suggested the Lumenition may be the culprit.  

[Mk2 Chopper]

It's cheaper to change points and condensor than another electronic ignition Ernest. 

If you are able to determine on the next occasion the car fails, that it is indeed an ignition problem (by checking you have a spark of not) then it's a case of working your way back from the plugs to the fuse box, via the ignition leads, distributor cap, rotor arm, points/ electronic ignition, king lead, coil, and 12v supply.

No one can say for sure if the electronic ignition is at fault until its tested under the condition of failure. 

Gareth

[keith1948]

2 hours ago, RobH said:

In this case the fault may be related to heat, since the engine starts if given time to cool down.   One of the few things which can be affected by heat in this way is electronics, which is why so many people have suggested the Lumenition may be the culprit.  

Or maybe faulty coil when it gets hot. Possibly loose connection somewhere. Check spade connectors on white wire from coil back to ignition switch. Dry solder joint maybe. Plenty to choose from. Only way to pin down the fault is to get engine hot until it cuts out and then systematically work through electrics a bit at a time with a meter. Good luck with it as intermittent faults often take ages to solve and then it turns out to be something simple.

As an example BMW 3 series would not restart once it was hot. Fault eventually traced to a hairline crack on the fuel pump relay that opened up when hot and closed when cold. Had a similar issue on same car with the fuel gauge. When it was hot the fuel gauge stopped working. This was a dry joint on one of the 2 connections at the back of the gauge. Both faults quickly fixed with a soldering iron but took ages to find.

Keith

[michaelfinnis]

Why not try an in-line spark plug tester, cheap as chips at Halfords or on flea-bay. Very quick and easy indication of whether you are getting a decent spark at the plug or not.

Mike.

[Z320]

A worn cable connection on the + 12V spade of the ignition coil was the reason on a post a few days ago?

Pull gently on it.

Ciao, Marco

[Z320]

13 hours ago, Ernest said:

Hi all

Thanks for your advice - Not sure what you are on about z320? I have tried most of the recommendations that I could do (coil, rotor arm, petrol pump and cut-off, and checked ignition-related wiring.

But I do not know how to change the condenser/points and I would not what to do this unless I was fairly confident that such a change would sort the problem -

What would changing to condenser/point actual do - I had thought that electronic ignition was an upgrade on this in terms of reliability.

Is there not an easier way to see if the E.I. is not working properly?

If not, and the general view is that I need to try condenser/points then I will access u/tube as suggested and try the conversion.

Thanks again 

Ernest

 

 

At your first post I explained you how / why my electronic ignition failed

Edited December 1, 2023 by Z320

[roy53]

16 hours ago, Mk2 Chopper said:

It's cheaper to change points and condensor than another electronic ignition Ernest. 

 

No one can say for sure if the electronic ignition is at fault until its tested under the condition of failure. 

Gareth

I suggested another electronic ignition change as he says he doesn’t have the confidence to change back to points. Perhaps doesn’t have the parts.So like for like should be the easiest.

Roy 

[Mk2 Chopper]

10 minutes ago, roy53 said:

I suggested another electronic ignition change as he says he doesn’t have the confidence to change back to points. Perhaps doesn’t have the parts.So like for like should be the easiest.

Roy 

No fair enough Roy. I think what's happened is we have gone through the same advice on at least two threads, and I sense some frustration from those trying to help. There is a lot of information to take in and if the OP isn't confident in changing points for example, maybe he doesn't know which way to go to sort this problem out. 

I just hope he reaches out to his local group, I'm sure they would do their best to help and show how to do these things. 

Gareth