TR4A/TR6 wiper motor conversion - looking for the correct dash switch to use

[RobH]

Different insulation thicknesses there I suspect Phil.  The 8.75A stuff should be fine - the '14W' motor draws about 1.2 amps at low speed and 2 amps at fast speed but there will be a bit higher current spike ( maybe 5A) as it starts up.  

 

 

Edited January 18 by RobH

[phil Dean]

Thanks so much Rob, I have the right colours to match at 8.75 amp as well so that helps. 

 

Phil

[Tr4aJim]

Phil I’m using a 16 gauge wire for the new “blue/green” wire I have to run. 
 

BTW, sounds like you’re having the same weather I am. It’s been -10C here over night, and -4C during the day, with snow! The frustrating thing is the new wiper gear arrived from SVC, and too cold in the garage to install it!

Jim

[phil Dean]

Back tomorrow at it Jim, its going to be a barmy 2/3 degrees C almost tropical.  

[phil Dean]

O well I thought this afternoon I would get the wiper motor conversion finished . Everything was fine up to fitting the wiper blades I have 2 speed wipers and  2 washer jets with a strong spray for the first time since I bought the car last June. However not so On fitting the wiper arms they want to park in the middle of the screen. I first fitted the drivers side wiper arm in what I thought would be near to the park position bottom drivers side of the screen drivers side when I switched them back on it wanted to force the wiper down over the scuttle. I am just wondering because I followed Jim's wiring diagram as above and his car is a left hand drive is that the problem if this was a left hand drive car they would be perfect once the wipers were swapped round or have I done something stupid. 

Help 

Phil.

 

Edited January 23 by phil Dean

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

1 hour ago, phil Dean said:

O well I thought this afternoon I would get the wiper motor conversion finished . Everything was fine up to fitting the wiper blades I have 2 speed wipers and  2 washer jets with a strong spray for the first time since I bought the car last June. However not so On fitting the wiper arms they want to park in the middle of the screen. I first fitted the drivers side wiper arm in what I thought would be near to the park position bottom drivers side of the screen drivers side when I switched them back on it wanted to force the wiper down over the scuttle. I am just wondering because I followed Jim's wiring diagram as above and his car is a left hand drive is that the problem if this was a left hand drive car they would be perfect once the wipers were swapped round or have I done something stupid. 

Help 

Phil.

 

Is this not a case of either you have fitted the wheel boxes upside down or you need to push the plastic gear off the drive spindle inside the motor, and rotated it 180 degrees so the park switch operating ramp is diametrically opposite to where it is now.

[RobH]

Ah - nothing to do  with the wiring  I think.

There are two versions of the 14W motor,  for LH and RH parking.   This is set by the position of the cam on the rear of the plastic drive wheel .  The cam determines whether the motor parks with the rack fully extended or fully retracted. 

edit-  I see Peter has already said that . 

You can see there are two holes on the other side of the wheel. With luck it may be possible to remove the cam from its present position and re-mount in the other, rather than move the whole wheel,  but that will depend on how it is fixed.   

 

Edited January 23 by RobH

[RogerH]

Hi Phil,

 no luck required -  that cam comes out fairly easily and pops in the other side.

They always seem to arrive the wrong way round.

 

Roger

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

25 minutes ago, RobH said:

Ah - nothing to do  with the wiring  I think.

There are two versions of the 14W motor,  for LH and RH parking.   This is set by the position of the cam on the rear of the plastic drive wheel .  The cam determines whether the motor parks with the rack fully extended or fully retracted. 

edit-  I see Peter has already said that . 

You can see there are two holes on the other side of the wheel. With luck it may be possible to remove the cam from its present position and re-mount in the other, rather than move the whole wheel,  but that will depend on how it is fixed.   

 

Ahh thank you for that.  I thought the cam was moulded with the gear, not a clip on accessory.   That makes it simple to change.

[Tr4aJim]

Phil I’m right behind you! I plan to finish my install this weekend as the temperatures will finally be above freezing!

Jim

[phil Dean]

A ha I did think it might be something like that but after messing and messing my few brain sells went into melt down. 

 So I will get back on it in few days thanks as usual for your help ,knowledge and responses 

Phil 

[Tr4aJim]

In the immortal words of Dr Frankenstein (and Gene Wilder) - IT’S ALIVE!!!

The TR6 motor, with Roger’s modified switch, works! This is with the stock 4A wheel boxes and a 90 degree gear in the motor. Now I just have to tidy up the wires.

 

However……….

I don’t notice any real difference between the two speed positions. Is that just the way they were, or could I have something wired incorrectly?

Jim

[RogerH]

ummm - Hi Jim,

 the fast speed should be quite a bit faster.  It should sound faster to the ear also.

Does the switch feel correct when pulled out and pushed in.?

 

Roger

[Tr4aJim]

Roger, the switch feels fine with obvious detents, and as I mentioned in a previous post, the connections between terminals is as follows:

switch all the way in - pins 2&6 connected (brown/green to red/green)

switch pulled out to first position- pins 4&6 connected (green to red/green)

switch pulled out to second position- pins 4&8 connected (green to blue/green)

 

With the exception of the new blue/green wire I ran, all other wires are from the stock 4A loom (I tapped power off the green wire going to the heater fan).

Im going to try and connect the switch directly to the motor’s wires, to verify no issues in the 4A loom.

Jim

[RogerH]

Hi Jim,

are you using the mini loom  #85  HERE  This should align all the wires correctly

 

Roger

[Tr4aJim]

Roger, no, the motor came with the connector/wires:  black, green/white, brown/green, red/green, and blue/green, which I imagine is just like the Moss loom.

Using the Moss switch wiring chart that RobH provided earlier as a reference, 

(https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/media/pdf/155496_instructions.pdf) 

I ran two tests bypassing the switch and wired the motor directly:

- I only connected the motors green/white wire to its red/green wire (simulating switch connector 4&6) , and added 12 volts to that connection. The motor ran at slow speed.

-  I then only connected the motors blue/green wire to its green/white wire (simulating switch connections 4&8), and added 12 volts to that. The motor ran at slow speed.

I bought the motor from an eBay wiper motor rebuilder who specializes in British cars, and came with good references. So I notified him of the issue, and waiting to hear back.

Jim

[RogerH]

The above logic should give normal  and fast speed

 

I hope the re builder comes up TRumps.

 

Roger

[RobH]

This is the brush carrier on the 14W motor.   For the motor to run only at one speed, the red and yellow wires would have to be shorted together. 

Your black wire -> blue here, which would be connector pin 1 on the motor.

blue/green -> yellow, connector pin 3

red/green ->red, connector pin 5

(green/white is power to the self-park contact, on connector pin 4    and brown/green goes back from the self-park contact to the wiper switch, on connector pin 2)

 

[Tr4aJim]

RobH, you were right!! I used a continuity tester on the motor contacts, and found the following contacts were connected inside the motor:

1&2

1&4

2&4

3&5

So the blue/green wire is somehow connecting to the red/green wire inside the motor. I’ll let the motor rebuilder know. Thanks!

Jim

[Lebro]

Not necessarily ! you are probably just measuring the low resistance of the armature winding. You would need to be able to measure the difference between a dead short, & a few ohms to know for sure.

Bob

[RobH]

Yes -  sorry,  I should have said that. With an ordinary ohmmeter it is very difficult to measure the difference as Bob says.  You can only really tell by lifting one of the brushes off the commutator.    

Electrically speaking though, there's really nothing else which can cause this fault though its difficult to imagine how it can happen. Normally the 14W motor has a connector block like this, Can you unplug the red and yellow wires from the back and run it with direct connections to them, to double-check?

 

 

Edited January 27 by RobH

[phil Dean]

Now I have moved the cam 180 Degrees on the motor wheel cog mine now park perfectly. Jim it doesn't help you but my 2 speeds are definitely miles apart Roger is right even without the wipers on  the noise from slow to fast speed is different with the wiper arms on the fast is fast. ans slow is slow.

The only problem I have found now is the fuel gauge and temp gauge are not working this usual points to the voltage regulator but everything else running thru the V/ Reg is working fine heater,flashers, wiper motor brake lights is this a head up under dash to see if I have pulled some wires when changing the plastics wedges and cleaning the wiper boxes or is there something else I should check. The V/Reg is a after market one. Everything was working fine before I started the wiper instal.

Phil.

Edited January 27 by phil Dean

[RogerH]

Hi Phil,

although other 'Green wire' items attach to the Voltage stabiliser only the Temp and Fuel gauges actually use it.

You have almost certainly pulled a wire off.

WARNING - do not hold the wiper arms when turning the wipers ON. The car will flip over.

Roger

 

 

[Tr4aJim]

IT WORKS!!!!!!!

As usual, the problem……was mine. I always take the battery out of my car over the winter, on a shelf with a trickle charger. So for tinkering, I use a 12 volt power source that I’ve had for years. I used it for this. To try and isolate the problem, I put the motor on the bench, and with no switch, connected the motors green and green/red wires together. I added the 12 volt supply, and got slow speed. I then connected the motors green and blue/green wires together and still got slow speed!

After cursing the names of several old deities, I decided to pull the car battery off the shelf and try that test again.
VOILA - TWO SPEEDS!

Apparently that old 12 volt supply isn’t, or it’s not pushing enough amps, or whatever - anyway it’s in the bin!!

I installed the motor back in the car, hooked the motor wires up to the cars wiring, and Rogers switch, and it all works like a dream!

Thank you all for the gracious help and most of all - patience!

Jim

PS - RobH - on the motor I have, those yellow, red, and blue wires are set right into that plastic piece. No connectors as in your picture.

Edited January 27 by Tr4aJim

[RobH]

Excellent Jim. Another one chalked up to experience and noted for future reference.