Taxed by the Mile

[JohnG]

Well, it was always the fairest way to spread Vehicle Excise Duty, but, has been studiously ignored by every government since the early 50's

Maybe the time is now, rather than waiting until EVs are in the majority

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/fuel-news/drivers-taxed-by-the-mile-to-fill-the-25bn-void-from-lost-fuel-duty/?cid=eml-AC058_CHUB_MEMBERS_RENEWAL_WINDOW_B-CHUB_MEMSIN_A_RENEWAL_WINDOW_B_20230601_194128&utm_medium=email&utm_source=AC058_CHUB_MEMBERS_RENEWAL_WINDOW_B&utm_campaign=CHUB_MEMSIN_A_RENEWAL_WINDOW_B_20230601_194128&omhide=true&contactURN=42603316&hasBreakdown=true

[RobH]

Extremely difficult to implement though John.   You could mandate that all cars have to have some GPS gizmo fitted that talks to roadside receivers but that is fairly easy to disrupt or confuse. GPS jammers are illegal but readily available and anything like that is easily screened to stop it receiving or transmitting.  Is it even feasible to retro-fit that to all cars? 

Would ANPR cameras be the answer  - could they afford to put them on every road however minor or would it be limited to major roads only - in which case everyone would probably opt for the scenic route? 

How about the privacy problem, as the corollary of charging is that your every movement is tracked and recorded?

Lots of aspects to get something like that working reliably and the Government track record for massive IT projects is not good. 

[JohnG]

32 minutes ago, RobH said:

Extremely difficult to implement though John.   You could mandate that all cars have to have some GPS gizmo fitted that talks to roadside receivers but that is fairly easy to disrupt or confuse. GPS jammers are illegal but readily available and anything like that is easily screened to stop it receiving or transmitting.  Is it even feasible to retro-fit that to all cars? 

Would ANPR cameras be the answer  - could they afford to put them on every road however minor or would it be limited to major roads only - in which case everyone would probably opt for the scenic route? 

How about the privacy problem, as the corollary of charging is that your every movement is tracked and recorded?

Lots of aspects to get something like that working reliably and the Government track record for massive IT projects is not good. 

Agree on every point Rob, but, I sure that, the idea of having to risk a reduction in VED, or, raise lots of VED by hitting EVs, is a governments worst nightmare.

 

My privacy?

No one, least of all the government, cares

ANPR?

I'm sure that this would be part of the solution

GPS?

Yes, difficult and probably not viable

 

Most of all . . . . Cost of implementing anything could, could, be prohibitive.

Have said this, I am still firmly of the opinion that we road users should pay according to how much we use but then, implimentation aint my problem.

[RogerH]

Each year at the MOT your mileage is inputted into the system.

Could there be a system whereby the car itself radio's the mileage to big brother.

Some cars already tell head office when the clacker valve needs chaining.

So have two system  the old original that would be reducing year on year. And a new electric vehicle system that transmits its mileage.

 

Roger 

[RobH]

2 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Could there be a system whereby the car itself radio's the mileage to big brother.

 

Too easily defeated or hacked Roger, and what if some of those miles were not driven in the UK or on private land rather than public roads? 

[saffrontr]

What about individuals who live in the countryside, is it fair that they could be charged the same per mile as someone who lives in a town or city? In my case if I wanted a pint of milk and some bread this involves a round trip of 10 miles. 

Derek

[RobH]

32 minutes ago, saffrontr said:

What about individuals who live in the countryside, is it fair that they could be charged the same per mile as someone who lives in a town or city?

Well  - that is what happens now with fuel duty.  We all pay the same regardless of location. 

[Peter Cobbold]

Put the tax on new tyres, they wear out in rough proportion to miles. ?

[RobH]

4 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Put the tax on new tyres, they wear out in rough proportion to miles. ?

Hmm.  Petrol duty is currently 53p/l or about £2.40 per gallon.  Lets say average of  30 mpg and a tyre lasts 20,000 miles, then the equivalent tax for a 4 wheel car would have to be:

(20,000 x 2.40) /  (30 x 4)  = £400 per tyr e, plus vat =  £480 .   People might cough at stumping up that much tax per tyre on top of the cost of the tyres.  At least on fuel it is drip feed so you don't notice so much.  Not a vote-winner I think. 

[Hawk]

I have no objection to pay per mile as I have multiple vehicles (the majority of which I still pay VED on). Some travel less than 1,000 miles a year but I pay the same as someone who drives 40,000 miles a year.  

That said, it is impossible to implement and will never be fair (although what is nowadays!).  

An alternative could be build it into the MOT and / or insurance and to properly police those who flout the law?   

[Mick Forey]

How about VED increases exponentially with weight of vehicle as that is what causes the damage to roads and the environment. So those lumbering, inefficient SUVs pay the most. Anybody with a svelte, Colin Chapman inspired, lightweight city car gets it for free. All irrespective of power source. This is an incentive for manufacturers and buyers alike.

Mick

[james christie]

Are we not trying to reinvent the wheel, here?

I would have thought that any tax on fuel would be fair, non? Or am I missing something?

james

[RobH]

3 minutes ago, Mick Forey said:

How about VED increases exponentially with weight of vehicle as that is what causes the damage to roads and the environment.

Good in principle Mick, but it penalises low-mileage drivers as it isn't usage-related.   Assuming a small car with average 8000 miles per year at 30 mpg , fuel tax raises  £640.  If you are going to go upwards from that as VED for a big barge It's going to make people cough.   Difficult to sell politically. 

 

 

[RobH]

3 minutes ago, james christie said:

I would have thought that any tax on fuel would be fair, non? Or am I missing something?

Well the fuel in question is electricity James.  You would need to increase the cost of that for BEV drivers in line with petrol duty but how do you do that when you can plug the cars in anywhere - even to normal domestic mains if slow charging isn't an issue  ?  You would have to have a means of different metering solely for car charging and somehow stop them from using anything else. 

[james christie]

Clearly, I was missing something

james

[JohnG]

The only really easy way to tax per mile, without many of the problems highlighted, is to tax the fuel and here, we have to think like poiticians;
There are all the difficulties as discussed here, plus the politicians input;
Abolish road tax and:
- Tax electric cars on a sliding scale based on published distance capability
- Add a premium on fuel for IC vehicles . . .yes, a 3rd tax on oil based fuels
- Add a premium to all vehicles based on weight, this can be an annual charge, like road tax is now, BUT it won't be road tax, as this has been abolished.
- Add an additional amount to the above annual tax, to take into account the emissions from tyres (this will be an arbitrary amount, based on what the Gov't thinks it can get away with)
- Apply to all vehicles

You see
NOW you are thinking like politicians.
Loadsa money, no added bother, no loss of jobs . . .winner, winner

[Steve-B]

ANPR, pah no way. Mileage monitoring, double pah no way.

To my mind, the only way is a tax on tyres which have mileage ratings. Most fair.

Pity the parking garage owners (yeah right!) as many of their facilities are designed for petrol based cars. EVs can be up to double their weight, or more. Many structures are unable to house more than a few as discussed in https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/05/electric-cars-too-heavy-old-multi-storey-car-parks/ today.

I really love Rowan Atkinson's article at the weekend on EVs: https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/22574305/duped-by-electric-cars-rowan-atkinson/

[mike ellis]

The Sun paraphrasing from his article, original text here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

[PaulAnderson]

I think John has it apart from the EV distance where it should be on efficiency rather than range.  The aim with an EV is to go for efficiency in say miles per kilowatt where you can see for instance that a Tesla model 3 is more efficient than a bigger batteried and heavier Porsche Taycan.  

I read an article a couple of weeks ago that stated that the top ten heaviest cars on sale included no EV’s, just large and largely unnecessary petrol and diesel 4*4’s and large SUV’s.   So that often repeated Telegraph article on EV’s causing car parks to collapse is just more anti EV propaganda when these lumbering things should be the target.  

Rowan Atkinsons comments are discussed on this Twitter post  that I came across 

Edited June 8, 2023 by PaulAnderson

[RobH]

9 hours ago, PaulAnderson said:

I read an article a couple of weeks ago that stated that the top ten heaviest cars on sale included no EV’s, just large and largely unnecessary petrol and diesel 4*4’s and large SUV’s.   So that often repeated Telegraph article on EV’s causing car parks to collapse is just more anti EV propaganda when these lumbering things should be the target.

You are missing the point a bit Paul. Yes the 'lumbering things' are extremely heavy but they are relatively few. The problem for the multistories comes when all the run-of-the-mill cars weigh getting on for double that of the average car when the car park was designed, coupled with a possible reduction in safety margins due to deterioration of the structure with time. 

For instance, a Ford Cortina which was considered a largish car in its day, weighed up to 1000kg depending on model.  A Morris Marina weighed about 880kg.  The heaviest Austin Mini weighed 750kg.  

By contrast a Nissan Leaf weighs around 1700kg. - 1800kg depending on battery size.  A Tesla model 3P is 1940kg.  A Citroen e-C4  is 1740kg.   It is the increased weight of the average car which is the problem.

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by RobH

[PaulAnderson]

I think the word “few” is incorrect as I see SUV’s everywhere and even the governments transport body criticised the market for making so many heavy, less aerodynamic and inefficient cars a few years ago.  They’re also poorer for pedestrians in an accident.   It’s gotten worse since but it seems that’s what the public want.  I’m not going to spend time looking for statistics but on my first search result this RAC report came up focussing on large SUV’s 

All cars are heavier than they used to be, often due to size increase e.g Fiesta, Corsa, Cortina-Mondeo etc. but also due to increased features whether safety ( multiple airbags) or features such as technology and the cabling that such requires.  It’s misleading to refer to say an old mini and then an EV where you should also compare the old mini to the current much heavier mini.  I’ve tried Mini’s own web site and several review sites and been unable to find the weight of the current 3 door mini so have given up.   My point was that the Telegraph and others are focusing purely on EV’s where they should just state heavy vehicles.   Efficiency of all vehicles whether internal combustion or electric or even hydrogen should be the the focus.   Mankind has to reduce energy consumption and improving efficiency of all types should be the focus, including by the use of taxation of the least efficient. 

For reference, electric car efficiencies can be listed in order at this EV database page.  

And no I don’t have an EV.  A friend has a Tesla model 3 stealth performance (0-60 in 3.7) and I’ve been looking at the EV market.  One I find interesting is a BMW I3 which has a aluminium chassis and a carbon fibre body shell with plastic outer panels.  The interior is either already recycled or is 80% recyclable.  Because of its construction it has an unladen weight of only 1,345 kg and hence despite its poor aerodynamic shape is relatively high on the efficiency scale, especially in the urban cycle.  Unfortunately after 10 years in production it’s no longer made and was expensive at the time due to the carbon fibre.  Electric cars which don’t  need big engine bays, central tunnels and space for exhausts offer opportunities for alternative design and construction like the i3 and it’s a shame that BMW have gone back to making big SUV style electric cars.

[RobH]

1 hour ago, PaulAnderson said:

 It’s misleading to refer to say an old mini and then an EV where you should also compare the old mini to the current much heavier mini.

No it isn't - it is exactly the point for the safety of the multi-stories.  It is those old and much lighter cars that the structures were designed to take - not modern vehicles. When these structures were built in the 60's and 70's did anyone envisage that vehicle weights would double during their lifespan?

 I agree that it is both bloated new conventional 'average' cars and even more so BEVs that are a potential problem which the proliferation of heavy BEVs has now brought to the attention of the media.   Let's hope that those responsible for these buildings take note. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65319586

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by RobH

[stillp]

Has anyone considered the effect of the increase in average vehicle weight on bridges?

Many years ago I read an engineering report on the first Severn Bridge, in which some of the problems that bridge had in its early years were said to be due to all the toll booths being at the English end. This meant that traffic queuing to pay the toll, hence the vehicles were closer together than the flowing traffic on the other carriageway, was on the upstream side of the bridge. This caused the bridge deck to be slightly rotated, so the underside was exposed to the prevailing wind which in turn caused fretting of some elements of the suspension system leading to some premature component failures.

If the increased density of queuing traffic compared to flowing traffic can cause a problem then surely the near-doubling of average vehicle weight will also be significant.

Pete