Starting problems after a rebuild

[AarhusTr6]

Hi all, after some help after trying and trying and reaching the end of my technical limits.

My TR6 had major winter re-work, so new rings, big ends, corrected end float,  oil pump etc etc and this was done mainly due to too much smoke when driving last summer.

I must admit, I was crpping myself when I first started it after rebuild, as it was my first big job, but it did start but sounded like a tractor but nothing clunky, ie mechanical.  After fitting ancillaries, I went for a drive and it was chug chug chug - and slow.  I thought, this is good, as engine actually sounded good, so no mechanical issues, just timing I assumed.

So then I tried fixing that and things went worse . . it now wont start at all.  Below is my attempt to show what I have done and why, with results.  Also a bit on the car.

 

Car is from 1970, but a 74 engine.  Setup is a rebuilt dizzy from distributor Doctor ,but not with points, rather the petronix non points setup which worked fine last year.  Its also a Carb version, with carbs recently rebuilt in 2021 by a specialist in Germany.

Tried the following, as I assume its fuel, air or  timing.  

• Spark test on main HT and every spark plug using a spark test.  I get a nice spark on every cylinder and on main HT
• Spark plugs look okay, bit of a fuel smell.
• Checked leads from coil against petronix wiring diagram
• checked drive to oil pump, and shaft looks that its in the right position, ie offset towards wing
• Rotor points nice to No1 piston at TDC, firing is 153624
• I get fuel, tested by putting bottle on fuel line before barb and it pumped out on a turn.  Have not tried a spray starter on carbs as working on own in garage mostly.
• On carbs, I have not changed much, but idle screws are full out, just before lever, choke cams set using 5/16 drill bit.
• Added oil to carbs
• Fuel is a few months old only.  Also tried opening fuel cap.
• Tried fully reversing the dizzy setup in case it was 180 degrees out
• Tried a different, spare ignition coil
• Kicking the tyre  mumbling something about a bucket, and drinking a beer....

Engine keeps whirr whirr whirr and nothing, not even a catch or a hook.   It does though have good oil pressure, so guess oil pump is engaged.

Now before I started messing with ignition etc, and it ran, but like a tractor i could see/hear the front carb sucked a lot louder than the rear carb, but since now I cant even start it, this is not something I can pursue further.  

Now being in Denmark, not many old skool mechanics around and sad to say, the Triumph club here could be an option to outreach to but though I'd try here first.

I have read and read now, watched too much youTube and possibly cannot see the wood for the trees.    Also err-indoors has promised my car for an event with her niece in a few weeks... so no pressure.

Can post pictures, can and will to trying anything and think I covered most.  So any ideas, send them this way please,

Richard

Desperate in Denmark

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by AarhusTr6

[roy53]

Spray or dribble a small amount of fuel into both carb mouths then try.

[PodOne]

Suggest also fresh plugs as once soaked in petrol they never seem to that good even when cleaned.

Plus a squirt of easy start (ether). If you have spark she should run.

Keep us posted.

Andy

 

[Blue TR4]

You have the rotor arm pointed to number one at TDC BUT make sure that is TDC on the compression stroke. The easy check is to remove the plugs and put you thumb over the no1 plug hole and turn the engine over (push it in gear or use a spanner on the crank bolt Don't use the starter. You will feel when it's on the compression stroke and can then stop at you TDC mark.

For info the TDC marks on the pulley can be wrong.

Hope this helps

Neil

[Andy Moltu]

Spray some cold start in the carbs. If it fires it's likely a fuel.issue. 

It would seem you have a decent spark. Is the coil a 12v one? Whilst the 74 cars ran a ballast resistor your loom won't have one so should be fitted with a 12 coil. If someone has fitted a coil intended for a 74 car, the sustained 12 supply may cause it to fail.

Put back on points just in case the ignition module is defective.

[Mk2 Chopper]

It seems the the change of timing caused this, so can you re trace your steps back to that point. Also you say the fuel is a couple of months old, this newer fuel isn't good at being stored, so I would for sure be trying some fresh fuel. 

Gareth

[AarhusTr6]

Hi folks

tomorrow I’ll try blasting some start spray into the carbs and Tuesday (as the shops are closed) I’ll get a set of new spark plugs and see what happens then.

Richard 

[AarhusTr6]

21 hours ago, Andy Moltu said:

Spray some cold start in the carbs. If it fires it's likely a fuel.issue. 

It would seem you have a decent spark. Is the coil a 12v one? Whilst the 74 cars ran a ballast resistor your loom won't have one so should be fitted with a 12 coil. If someone has fitted a coil intended for a 74 car, the sustained 12 supply may cause it to fail.

Put back on points just in case the ignition module is defective.

Hi - no ballast resistor fitted 

Richard 

[AarhusTr6]

22 hours ago, Blue TR4 said:

You have the rotor arm pointed to number one at TDC BUT make sure that is TDC on the compression stroke. The easy check is to remove the plugs and put you thumb over the no1 plug hole and turn the engine over (push it in gear or use a spanner on the crank bolt Don't use the starter. You will feel when it's on the compression stroke and can then stop at you TDC mark.

For info the TDC marks on the pulley can be wrong.

Hope this helps

Neil

Hi

so if there is pressure on your finger then it’s firing else valves are open and then no pressure I assume ?

richard 

[unclepete]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SOFUFwmsvs&list=PLLWNLIF9Lk942lpfh84HxBI_9fl099hQJ&index=9&t=1262s

Installation of the Distributor drive gear is critical and fairly easy to check.

I've attached Elin Yakov's Video where he covers this in a TR6 engine rebuild.

[AarhusTr6]

35 minutes ago, unclepete said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SOFUFwmsvs&list=PLLWNLIF9Lk942lpfh84HxBI_9fl099hQJ&index=9&t=1262s

Installation of the Distributor drive gear is critical and fairly easy to check.

I've attached Elin Yakov's Video where he covers this in a TR6 engine rebuild.

Watched this !   Along with loads of others and think I have it right 

[AarhusTr6]

So this morning tired start spray… nothing but plugs did stink after of the spray !

Assuming ignition for now so will put old points in and new plugs tomorrow  

[unclepete]

During your rebuild did you dismantle the Camshaft, Camchain etc?

[Mike C]

If you have a timing light, I'd check to see if the timing is within a bull's roar of 11 degrees BTDC.

[AarhusTr6]

5 hours ago, unclepete said:

During your rebuild did you dismantle the Camshaft, Camchain etc?

Hi -  i I did not 

Richard 

[AarhusTr6]

4 hours ago, Mike C said:

If you have a timing light, I'd check to see if the timing is within a bull's roar of 11 degrees BTDC.

Hi so you can time from a light and then just have someone turning the key ?

[Waldi]

No, you just put the car in 4th gear, remove the HT lead from coil to distr.(so it will not start unexpected), push the car fwd bit by bit (slowly) and with a 12V test lamp you can check when the points open, this is static timing. 

Waldi

 

[PodOne]

I think Aarhus is running with electronic ignition Waldi so the above method might not be possible?

Andy

[Waldi]

Aha, 
Thanks Andy and sorry Richard.
If you have a timing light (like a stroboscope), you can just crank the car on the starter to measure the static timing. Clamp the “sensor” of the strobe on the HT lead to cyl. #1.

If you see no flashes at all, you probably have an ignition issue.

But even with wet plugs you should still see a spark.

Waldi

 

[Mike C]

2 hours ago, Waldi said:

Aha, 
Thanks Andy and sorry Richard.
If you have a timing light (like a stroboscope), you can just crank the car on the starter to measure the static timing. Clamp the “sensor” of the strobe on the HT lead to cyl. #1.

If you see no flashes at all, you probably have an ignition issue.

But even with wet plugs you should still see a spark.

Waldi

 

Yep A timing light will confirm you have an ignition pulse and if its occurrence is in the ball park required to fire the engine.

[John L]

Whats the item you have connected to number 2 sparkplug wire, I presume its a spark indicator?, so are you getting a spark/flash there, when the engine is cranked?

Whats the black wire connected to the + terminal on the coil?  That should be the 12volt feed with ignition on, usually it was white wire.

Which electronic unit is fitted, Petronix, accuspark or other?

check the slow running screw on both carbs, turn them in to just open the butterfly a small amount, you said you could hear the front one sucking perhaps the rear needs to be a bit more open.

What sequence/ how did you adjust the tappets, and what clearance are they set too?

John

[AarhusTr6]

Hi all - - latest mid week garage update and no progress or any catching.

• tonight I reverted back to points, guess its easier to diagnose
• Nice fat spark on spart plug when earthing off block
• definate smell off fuel when taking off plug
• Think I am almost of 0TDC with strobe, but battery started to die and had to call it an evening

Plan for tomorrow:

• New plugs
• Try timing, will give the finger over plug No1 hole a go to ensure its at firing stroke, not tried before, something to learn

If that dont work, all I can think is 1) I am out 180 degrees or 2) fuel issue, but for this point, I have not done much or anything really with the carbs apart from take them off.

Thanks for help . . have to get this done before 5th May.

Rich

PS . . any experienced people who want to come to Aarhus in Denmark, I will offer all you can drink in Carslberg or Tuborg :-)

 

 

[AarhusTr6]

1 hour ago, John L said:

Whats the item you have connected to number 2 sparkplug wire, I presume its a spark indicator?, so are you getting a spark/flash there, when the engine is cranked?

Whats the black wire connected to the + terminal on the coil?  That should be the 12volt feed with ignition on, usually it was white wire.

Which electronic unit is fitted, Petronix, accuspark or other?

check the slow running screw on both carbs, turn them in to just open the butterfly a small amount, you said you could hear the front one sucking perhaps the rear needs to be a bit more open.

What sequence/ how did you adjust the tappets, and what clearance are they set too?

John

Hi John

Its Petronix, the black is to alternator (its just some heat shrink) and other two on + are to dizzy,  but now its with points so + to alternator and - to dizzy

[M. Pied Lourd]

Has the intake manifold been removed with the carburetors?  The reason I am asking is that I have seen the intake manifold hang up on the mounting studs in the block and not sit flush against the head....this creates a huge vacuum leak and the car will not start.   So, if the intake manifold was removed, id have a look to make sure that it was installed properly. 

 

Cheers

Tush

[Motorsport Mickey]

3 hours ago, M. Pied Lourd said:

Has the intake manifold been removed with the carburetors?  The reason I am asking is that I have seen the intake manifold hang up on the mounting studs in the block and not sit flush against the head....this creates a huge vacuum leak and the car will not start.   So, if the intake manifold was removed, id have a look to make sure that it was installed properly. 

 

Cheers

Tush

+1  I've also done this on a 4 cyl engine. Even worse if the car ...just...starts with a bootfull of choke and then is overcome by the massive air leak when the choke is pushed in, took me hours to work it out.

Mick Richards