Hamish Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 38 minutes ago, Lebro said: Have watched this series now, useful, but - he did not use a mandrel to center the crank oil seal, he cocked up the valve timing, & he fitted the oil thower on the crank the wrong way round ! Bob I never said he was perfect. Was using it as a good example of a view inside an engine to see if it had the brass plug. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 40 minutes ago, Lebro said: Have watched this series now, useful, but - he did not use a mandrel to center the crank oil seal, he cocked up the valve timing, & he fitted the oil thower on the crank the wrong way round ! Bob But...but... it’s on YouTube. ? Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, Lebro said: The CM system does not seal the oilway, but it is between the oilway, & the outside world, & needs that oilway to return oil to the sump (any that gets past the scroll. Anyway, I will bow to the collective opinion that I should put it back !. So, aside from that, I now have fitted the cam, front plate, & gone through the cam timing procedure. The Newman cam is supposed to be setup so that you can use the original timing marks on the pulleys, But I wanted to check that against the full method of setting crank at 110° ATDC, & then turning the cam to get full lift of inlet valve on No. 1. I used a dial gauge onto a steel rod conveniently the right size to fit into a cam follower nicely with no slop, marked the cam sprocket in two places of equal height below the peak, then marked the sprocket half way between. Without moving crank or cam, removed the cam sprocket, slipped the chain over, & replaced. well it was slightly out, about ½ a tooth, so I turned the cam sprocket over, & repeated the procedure. This time I was able to attach the sprocket in the right place. I then turned the crank to TDC, & using a straight edge I marked the cam sprocket where it was opposite the existing mark on the crank sprocket. then removed the cam sprocket to make that mark permanent with a chisel. Whilst at TDC, I put the cam sprocket back on the original way round to see how close the original markings aligned, they were close, but ½ tooth out, so glad I did it the long way. Happy with that tightened everything up, & fitted timing cover. Bob. For the benefit of those who like me don’t have access to a conveniently sized steel bar to check for the point of max. lift on the camshaft, you can use a pair of cam followers with the top one balanced upside down to give you a flat surface to place the dial gauge on. Rgds Ian Edited December 16, 2020 by Ian Vincent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 10 hours ago, Ian Vincent said: For the benefit of those who like me don’t have access to a conveniently sized steel bar to check for TDC, you can use a pair of cam followers with the top one balanced upside down to give you a flat surface to place the dial gauge on. Rgds Ian Upside down “ on top of the push rod”. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 39 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said: Upside down “ on top of the push rod”. Mick Richards nope, upside down on the lower of the two followers. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
R.M. Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 13 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said: But...but... it’s on YouTube. ? Mick Richards what's wrong with u tube?, at least it's easier to follow than trying to decipher the written word, i wish bob had done a video so i could follow only from the point of view i have an engine in bits from the previous owner and will need to put it back together and what is more i don't quite know what the previous owner did to it before i got hold of it other than take it apart, at least i do have a local engine performance company called Scholar engines close by if i get into real deep doodoo. "thanks bob for the postings" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 49 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said: nope, upside down on the lower of the two followers. Rgds Ian Thanks for that, more understandable. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, R.M. said: what's wrong with u tube?, I think Mick's point is that people tend to believe everything they see on You-tube, but as with all such sources there is some bad advice out there as well as the good stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Motorsport Mickey said: Thanks for that, more understandable. Mick Richards My original post was wrong, I was using the two followers to find the point of maximum lift on the cam. Sorry about that Mick. The second cam follower balanced on top brought the surface near enough to the top of the block for me to get my dial gauge onto it. I did think about a dab of superglue to hold the two together but in the event it wasn't necessary. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, RobH said: I think Mick's point is that people tend to believe everything they see on You-tube, but as with all such sources there is some bad advice out there as well as the good stuff. Gold star and a tick. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted December 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) I found the utube video interesting, if nothing else it reminded me to check the distributor drive end float, & it was good to see someone else doing what I was doing. Bob. P.s. 2 pistons in 2 to go. The pistons & rings I have look to be the same as in the video, & the oil control rings are a pain to get right, the coloured ends of the serrated center part will try to overlap one another at the slightest chance. & once the ring clamp is on you can't be sure they haven't done just that. Edited December 16, 2020 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
R.M. Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said: Gold star and a tick. Mick Richards Yes, i understand what Mr Motorsport was alluding to, that much was clear in his post, and yes one must never always just trust what is said on media channels, but you have to admit there is very little good info on these engine rebuilds by experienced rebuilders, so big up to Bob on his posts, just more pictures please Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie D Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 I do find You Tube useful for some things, but the way Bob is doing this means that if there is something that someone does not understand, they can ask, and get a reply within 24 hours. You can’t do that with You Tube. Also Bob can ask questions and people can (sometimes) tell Bob he’s doing it wrong. He doesn’t come over as a “Know it all”, like some of the You Tube tutorials. Plus he doesn’t have a really irritating voice. (Well, he may do in real life, I don’t know, but you can’t hear it on the forum.) Charlie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted December 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) I can irritate with the best of 'em There are a lot of operations I could not have done properly without the help of the likes of Micky, Peter, Iain, Ian etc. If my photos & questions help someone else that's great. Todays work comprised painting wellseal on the liner bases, seats, & both sides of FO8 gaskets (put a bit extra on No. 3), clamping liners down after a suitable delay to let the Wellseal thicken. Then preparing, & fitting the pistons. That all went reasonably well, once I got the hang of using the ring compressor (push it down onto the liners really hard whilst knocking in the pistons otherwise the very thin oil control rings escape). The torque figure for the ARP big end bolts is 45 ft lb, so I set the wrench to that, but also intended to add 50° of rotation after taking up slack as that should equate to 6 thou stretch. well it needed well over 50° to get to 45 ft lb, so that didn't work, but the bolt instructions say 6 thou stetch or 45 ft lb, so I'm still happy with them. I then fitted the oil pump. Next job was to apply cam lube to the cam lobes while I could get to them, followed by fitting the sump. turned engine over, & lubed & fitted the cam followers. Tomorrow the head will be going on. Bob. Edited January 16, 2021 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Lebro said: I can irritate with the best of 'em There are a lot of operations I could not have done properly without the help of the likes of Micky, Peter, Iain, Ian etc. If my photos & questions help someone else that's great. Todays work comprised painting wellseal on the liner bases, seats, & both sides of FO8 gaskets (put a bit extra on No. 3), clamping liners down after a suitable delay to let the Wellseal thicken. Then preparing, & fitting the pistons. That all went reasonably well, once I got the hang of using the ring compressor (push it down onto the lines really hard whilst knocking in the pistons otherwise the very thin oil control rings escape). The torque figure for the ARP big end bolts is 45 ft lb, so I set the wrench to that, but also intended to add 50° of rotation after taking up slack as that should equate to 6 thou stretch. well it needed well over 50° to get to 45 ft lb, so that didn't work, but the bolt instructions say 6 thou stetch or 45 ft lb, so I'm still happy with them. I then fitted the oil pump. Next job was to apply cam lube to the cam lobes while I could get to them, followed by fitting the sump. turned engine over, & lubed & fitted the cam followers. Tomorrow the head will be going on. Bob. Sounds like you have the same oil control rings as me and yes they are a right pain to fit from lining up the various bits to stopping the thin top and bottom rings escaping under the ring compressor before you get them down into the liner. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 A thing of clean beauty there Bob. keep up the good work and the inspiring narrative and pics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 45 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said: Sounds like you have the same oil control rings as me and yes they are a right pain to fit from lining up the various bits to stopping the thin top and bottom rings escaping under the ring compressor before you get them down into the liner Agreed. I found I had to have plenty of oil everywhere, tighten the spring compressor up quite tight then tap the pistons down into the liners, whilst guiding the conrod round the crank. Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lebro said: I can irritate with the best of 'em There are a lot of operations I could not have done properly without the help of the likes of Micky, Peter, Iain, Ian etc. If my photos & questions help someone else that's great. Todays work comprised painting wellseal on the liner bases, seats, & both sides of FO8 gaskets (put a bit extra on No. 3), clamping liners down after a suitable delay to let the Wellseal thicken. Then preparing, & fitting the pistons. That all went reasonably well, once I got the hang of using the ring compressor (push it down onto the liners really hard whilst knocking in the pistons otherwise the very thin oil control rings escape). The torque figure for the ARP big end bolts is 45 ft lb, so I set the wrench to that, but also intended to add 50° of rotation after taking up slack as that should equate to 6 thou stretch. well it needed well over 50° to get to 45 ft lb, so that didn't work, but the bolt instructions say 6 thou stetch or 45 ft lb, so I'm still happy with them. I then fitted the oil pump. Next job was to apply cam lube to the cam lobes while I could get to them, followed by fitting the sump. turned engine over, & lubed & fitted the cam followers. Tomorrow the head will be going on. Bob. Cracking on then Bob. This may be a daft question as I know what is written in the Maxpeeding rod instructions. Did you use only ARP lube on the bolt heads and threads in the con rods? ie. No Loctite or thread lock liquid on the bolt threads. What black paint have you used? Cheers Peter W Edited December 16, 2020 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted December 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 Peter. Yes, used ARP lubricant, bought a small sachet of it on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARP-Ultra-Torque-Fastener-Assembly-Lube-Lubricant-0-5-Fluid-oz-100-9908/113194218142?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 I applied it to the bolt threads, & under the cap as per instructions. As noted above I ended up using 45ft lb of torque rather than my calculated 50° of turn (stretch) I think the problem there was knowing how tight to do them up before starting the stretching process. The paint, so far, if my favorite metal paint from Lidl called "Metal paint with rust protection" in aerosol form, I do also have a pot of the same for brushing on which I will probably use on the so far unpainted block. One thing about the Maxspeeding rods is that unlike the original ST rods they have no oil feed to the small end, or the liners. I guess they rely on splash lubrication from the oil emerging from the big end being thrown upwards ? Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
R.M. Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 Bob, looking at a frost catalogue they do a paint that can be used on the interior of the engine, what is your opinion on that, a good idea? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Lebro said: Peter. Yes, used ARP lubricant, bought a small sachet of it on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARP-Ultra-Torque-Fastener-Assembly-Lube-Lubricant-0-5-Fluid-oz-100-9908/113194218142?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 I applied it to the bolt threads, & under the cap as per instructions. As noted above I ended up using 45ft lb of torque rather than my calculated 50° of turn (stretch) I think the problem there was knowing how tight to do them up before starting the stretching process. The paint, so far, if my favorite metal paint from Lidl called "Metal paint with rust protection" in aerosol form, I do also have a pot of the same for brushing on which I will probably use on the so far unpainted block. One thing about the Maxspeeding rods is that unlike the original ST rods they have no oil feed to the small end, or the liners. I guess they rely on splash lubrication from the oil emerging from the big end being thrown upwards ? Bob. I raised the issue of the lack of drilling in Maxspeeding rods on this forum some time ago and the general consensus from satisfied users was that thus far it hadn’t been a problem. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) Bob, “One thing about the Maxspeeding rods is that unlike the original ST rods they have no oil feed to the small end, or the liners. I guess they rely on splash lubrication from the oil emerging from the big end being thrown upwards ? “ There is no direct pressure feed, the Triumph Conrod internal drilling and the liner oil hole midway up the rod are missing...thank goodness. I broke a race prepared rod when it fractured across the rod directly through the oil hole, On a stressed member it is likely to be the weak spot. The Maxspeeding rods do have a small end oil hole which is directly on the outer curve of the little end about 3mm dia, Also inside the bronze little end, from the oil hole a cut oil distribution channel about 1mm deep around the circumference to distribute oil around the gudgeon pin. As you say, the oil splash from the big ends and the general mist of oil being thrashed around inside is assumed to be enough for the other surfaces. There’s been enough of these sold now to assume bad results would have surfaced if the assumption is wrong. R.M. Popular with hot rodding teams, Painting the insides of engine blocks has 2 followings, not surprisingly the pro side state the paint helps oil drain from the block walls more quickly, and helps to adhere any small grit particles left in the block to the walls preventing it passing through the engine. The con side which includes many competition mechanics say the paint on the interior walls interferes with the thermal exchange and slows the passage of heat out of the engine causing them to run hotter. They also expound the opposite opinion of paint inside an engine worrying that adhesion may not be that good and paint particles may be released into the lube system. Yer takes your pick. Mick Richards Edited January 13, 2021 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 Thanks Mick, that is reassuring. I am not planning to paint inside the engine. Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 I’m with you Bob. To me adding paint inside has the potential to come off. Even the best cleaned engines must have an oil residue to leach out and lift paint. I know fireman Tom painted the water jacket part of the block to prevent corrosion. most of our cars are cosseted even when used regularly and or hard so I’m sure good oil and anti freeze inhibitors and regular changes will keep it in working order. you will be running it in in January at this rate Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
R.M. Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 so i take it the overriding opinion would be not to paint the engine interior, Bob, did you have your block/head bead/sand blasted to get it so clean? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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