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Harrie

EWP in a TR6

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Hi all,

I am playing with the idea to give my TR6 a electric waterpump from Davies Craig. Removing the original waterpump and the thermostat and fitting the EWP in the lower hose from radiator to engine.
The temperature than will be controlled by a little computer that engages the EP and the electric fan when needed. Also after stopping the engine or when driving very slow in traffic.

Is there in this forum anyone who has done this before?

I hope there are some photo's to learn where such an EWP is placed, where to find a good place under the bonnet.

Harrie

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Harrie,

I have an EWP in my Stag and works very well but I would have to think hard about one in my TR6. The TR6 does not have a mechanical fan just an electric.

The Stag engine warms slowly and even a bit of spirited driving seems to take a while to get the engine really hot. The TR6 on the other hand gets to temperature very quickly and even a short burst on the throttle will get the exhaust manifold glowing and presumably the internals very hot very quickly.

The EWP is not throttle / rpm related only basing its pumping speed from the coolant sensor in the top hose, there will inevitably be a time lag between a rising rpm and coolant temperature at the sensor when the pump is on a reduced duty cycle. A mechanical water pump is of course rpm related and reacts instantly to increasing rpm though it will not of course have an ideal match between heat produced at a given rpm and the water flow rate. From my limited experience with the pump I installed in my Stag I would never be sure that my TR6 engine would not have hot spots due to fitting a EWP and its designed pumping lag.

Why does my TR6 engine get so hot? Perhaps I have a few extras that work the engine a little harder particularly the right foot, the Stag is much more of a gentleman's cruiser.

I am perfectly happy with the original pump in my TR6 it works well, is cheap and easy to replace but seems very, very reliable and efficient. In my Stag the original pump was badly sited difficult to replace but the EWP came at a fairly expensive price but replacement was a no-brainer.

By the way the EWP is mounted in the bottom hose on the Stag and does not mount onto any hardware, just "dangles" although fairly rigid. 

Alan

 

 

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I agree with Alan, I've never seen much point in installing an  EWP. Do you plan to totally remove the existing water pump and blank off the block and run a new V belt configuration? Most modern TR6 replacement mechanical water pumps don't look like the impeller can be easily removed and replaced with a spacer.

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Harrie,

I have a Davies Craig EWP on my race TR6. Have been very pleased with it after several years. My own and several other TR6 racers experience is that the TR6 engine does not run particularly hot, even thrashing it in 40 minute races. I have an electric fan but don't usually run that during the actual race, only switching it on during the formation lap to the grid and the slowing down lap after the chequered flag. I run a very modest radiator from a modern Peugeot 206 diesel. Different shape to standard TR6 rad but similar frontal area, very thin, very light and cheap to replace if damaged.

My EWP is connected directly into the power master switch and is on whenever the engine is running, no thermostatic control. I leave it on for a few minutes after each race to circulate the water while the engine is cooling down to avoid temperature spikes around the cylinder head area.

I have it located on a bespoke bracket fixed to the N/S radiator/front inner wheel arch mount to the chassis with bespoke hoses to it. I removed the standard mechanical water pump but retained the standard water pump housing, with an aluminium blanking plate over the front, and piped the delivery and return hoses through that housing.

I fitted it because the TR6, when revved consistently to high revs (7200 rpm ) even with a steel crank and harmonic crank damper is prone to throwing fan belts. Result no water pump, result overheated engine, at best blown head gasket, at worst cracked head. With EWP I have a much shorter fan belt running just the alternator so less chance to throw it. If it does fail the battery continues to run the EWP so no overheating issues, just no batter charge with the chance that, unless it happens on lap 1, there is every chance I'll still get to finish the race so its a win - win (I wish) situation.

I realise that these aren't road motoring conditions but my point is, don't be afraid of giving it a try. With the Davies Craig control unit (which I bought but haven't fitted) to monitor the need or not for both the  EWP and electric fan I believe that everything is very well controlled.

I don't have any photos available but could take some when I'm next at my workshop if you need any further info.

Dave McD

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Hi Dave,

just out of curiosity: how much current does the EWP draw?

Not related to the question of the OP but I have a mechanical (std) waterpump, and there is a clear difference between the original (brass) and repro (cast iron) impellor. The original will pump better/more water. If the engine water side is clean, this is no issue off course.

Waldi

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Dave, my use of an EWP in my road/race car is very similar to yours.  No control unit, on the road I switch it myself, on the track it's always on;  Honda Civic radiator.   DC recommend that the OE water pump is removed, so I ground all the vanes off the mechanical pump rotor, to avoid the need to fabricate a coolant connector for the front of the head and to make it easy to continue to use the pump pulley as an idler for the 'fan' belt.      Do you run yours between the two crank and alternator pulleys?    Could that be the reason you throw belts??

I had the Davies Craig (no relation, sad to say) EWP for ten years, when last year on return from CLM, the central coolant seal started to fail.     Not a replacable item, and well out of any guarantee, but I was so satisfied with the EWP I have a new one.

Waldi, On current, quote DC FAQ page:   "How much current does the EWP use?  The max current draw to operate the EWP80 is 7.5A and the EWP115 is 10A. However under average operating conditions the current draw is approx. 2A and 3A respectively."

John

Edited by john.r.davies

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Thanks John,

that is a surprisingly low current. I guess that even with 10A the power consumption is lower than the original pump (but that is just my guess, not backed up by any data).

Waldi

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Waldi,

DC also quote a power consumption of 6-10 KILOwatts by the mechanical water pump at top enegine speeds, whereas the EWP at 10A x 13V = 130 Watts, only.

Their figures, not mine.

John

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Dear all,

When I woke up this morning I was happy with all your answers and comments.
A short explanation: I drive both a Stag and a TR6 and in particular the Stag often has a problem (well known) with cooling, especially at speeds higher than 110 km/h or with higher outside temperatures,  on holiday in Italy or Spain. Especially when driving slowly or uphill, the needle turns to red.
For the Stag in particular, I therefore want to switch to the EWP,  but if I do approach something like that, why not also the TR6.
When I place the EWP, I think on the LH side where is most room,  I need to supply  from radiator low RH hose to the LH fitted EWP. Therefor my question whether someone has pictures of this. Is there a better place with more room for the EWP?
Thanks again.

Harrie

 

PS: For de Stag I will also search the forum at Stag Owners Club but if BarkerWilliams has some photo's I would love to see them.

Edited by Harrie
typing incorrect

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42 minutes ago, Harrie said:

PS: For de Stag I will also search the forum at Stag Owners Club but if BarkerWilliams has some photo's I would love to see them.

I'd recommend you also search the SOC forum for the belt driven external pump conversion one of the members sells, it's bulletproof and uses a cheap Ford pump.

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2 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

Waldi,

DC also quote a power consumption of 6-10 KILOwatts by the mechanical water pump at top enegine speeds, whereas the EWP at 10A x 13V = 130 Watts, only.

Their figures, not mine.

John

Wow John,

now that is very high, much more than I expected. 

But then, this helps understanding the gap between old SAE BHP and HP (that accounts for losses of water pump, alternator.

V-belt manufacturers like Gates have tools to calculate the recommended maximum allowable power to be transmitted for a specific belt at a specific belt speed. This may give a (coarse) indication, a bit of reversed engineering.

Best regards,

Waldi

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Why not let the original pump in place, of cource without V-belt, remove the thermostat and then  install an EWP?

Cheers 

Tage

Edited by 15eren

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John,

A "Glowing" exhaust manifld says spark retarded. Or were you using the word, for effect?

Mine glows dark red. AFR o2 wideband sensor / meter shows mixture at about 13.5, richer - 8'ish during acceleration. Manifold Phoenix SS.

Engine PI runs really well.

Alan

Harrie,

Just seen the request for  photo on Stag water pump. Difficult to get a camera in there. When I fitted mine I removed the alternator to top left of engine and the new EWP fits lower right where alternator was. The pump could then move / vibrate forward and catch the power steering belt  / pulley so I fitted the 90' btacket from the old alternator  bracket - it has arms  about 100mm  long to the original alternator mounting bolt but had the lower arm vertical'ish which just misses the EWP but would hold it away from moving parts if the EWP tries to move forward. It could have been made for the job.

Incidentally I used E J Wards kit which has all the parts you need and fits easily to Stag (no connection)

Alan

 

 

Edited by barkerwilliams

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Have a Stag and a 6.

Just fitted an EWP to the Stag because the rebuild kits for the mechanical pumps are pants - the seals are not fit for purpose and, to be honest the location of the water pump on the Stag is daft, high in the block and hidden under the inlet manifolds in the V and performance is marginal. Poor quality repro  pumps have the capacity tp chew up the jack shaft with catastrophic consequences. As a spin off the controller also controls the electric fan.

 

Not on my thoughts for the 6. Location is fine, works well and simply driven by the fan belt. An EWP is a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist. Pumps are cheap and long lasting. Electric fan switches are £10. No mechanical or financial case to be made for the swap to an EWP.

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Thanks for all the comments and advice. In view of all this, I will abandon the idea of an EWP in the TR6.
You are right: for my TR6 it is indeed a solution for a non-existent problem.
It is definitely a good solution for the Stag. You have also provided clarity for this; So this job is for the winter. Probably the EWP but a belt-driven solution I will definitely look at.
I particularly thank barkerwilliams for sharing his experiences.
And should it ever be necessary for the TR, I will come back to this and have the experience with the other Triumph right away.


Harrie

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7 hours ago, 15eren said:

Why not let the original pump in place, of cource without V-belt, remove the thermostat and then  install an EWP?

Cheers 

Tage

The mechanical pump's  impeller vanes will try to wind mill due to the water flowing past and put extra head on the electric pump.

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There was a kit to move the pump on the Stag and use a belt driven one using the Ford Essex 3l pump. Unfortunately this isn’t available any more. It was made by a guy who sold it through the SOC forum.

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19 hours ago, 15eren said:

Why not let the original pump in place, of cource without V-belt, remove the thermostat and then  install an EWP?

Cheers 

Tage

Further to MikeC's comment, DaviesCraig recommend the removal of a mechanical pump if fiting an EWP, no doubt for the reason he gave.      For me, it was easier to grind off the vanes from my mechanical pump, and retain it as an idler, so that the  'fan' belt could be tensioned as before.      Else some other idler system would be required.

John

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19 hours ago, barkerwilliams said:

John,

A "Glowing" exhaust manifld says spark retarded. Or were you using the word, for effect?

Mine glows dark red. AFR o2 wideband sensor / meter shows mixture at about 13.5, richer - 8'ish during acceleration. Manifold Phoenix SS.

Engine PI runs really well.

Alan

Harrie,

Just seen the request for  photo on Stag water pump. Difficult to get a camera in there. When I fitted mine I removed the alternator to top left of engine and the new EWP fits lower right where alternator was. The pump could then move / vibrate forward and catch the power steering belt  / pulley so I fitted the 90' btacket from the old alternator  bracket - it has arms  about 100mm  long to the original alternator mounting bolt but had the lower arm vertical'ish which just misses the EWP but would hold it away from moving parts if the EWP tries to move forward. It could have been made for the job.

Incidentally I used E J Wards kit which has all the parts you need and fits easily to Stag (no connection)

Alan

 

 

I can understand the need for an EWP on a Stag as the cooling system was way under spec. and the design of the rad was not cross flow as US V8 cars and it did not have the water capacity in the rad i.e. 30% less than it should have? I have never had cooling problems with my TR6 even in the summer of 1976 and including trips into the south of France & Spain but I have always used distilled water for cooling to combat lime scale with a bit of Furnox as used in domestic heating systems. I am only on my second rad after 46 years of ownership! I do have an electric fan but this only comes on in traffic congestion. I did away with the engine fan years ago!

Bruce.

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19 hours ago, barkerwilliams said:

John,

A "Glowing" exhaust manifld says spark retarded. Or were you using the word, for effect?

Mine glows dark red. AFR o2 wideband sensor / meter shows mixture at about 13.5, richer - 8'ish during acceleration. Manifold Phoenix SS.

Engine PI runs really well.

Alan

Glad to hear it, Alan, but the only time I've had a glowing manifold it was due to a grossly retarded ignition timing.      Cast iron glows visibly at about 900C, when exhaust gas temp in the manifold is usually less than 800C.     The AFR may not be relevant - it's just that the fuel is still burning as it exits the ports, so more heat in the manifold.

John

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An EWP in combination with oil heat exchanger is the only combination which would make sense. It takes too long for the oil to reach its operating temp. 

Jochem

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13 hours ago, JochemsTR said:

An EWP in combination with oil heat exchanger is the only combination which would make sense. It takes too long for the oil to reach its operating temp. 

Jochem

Why? The thermostat stops most coolant flow regardless of pump type, unless you plan a coolant/oil heat exchanger with its own circuit. . I don't have a problem with oil warm up time  in Australia but things  might be different in colder climates.

Edited by Mike C

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